Would TMP have been better had they used the TOS uniforms?

[C.E. Evans]

The original TOS uniforms were great for 1960's television, but were too garish and dated-looking by the time TMP was made--they would have to been modified with darker colors and overall remade in a more flattering contemporary style like they were in Star Trek XI.

But I think the uniforms really needed to change in TMP to signify that some time had passed since Kirk's 5-year mission, IMO.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The original TOS uniforms were great for 1960's television, but were too garish and dated-looking by the time TMP was made--they would have to been modified with darker colors and overall remade in a more flattering contemporary style like they were in Star Trek XI.

But I think the uniforms really needed to change in TMP to signify that some time had passed since Kirk's 5-year mission, IMO.

And, in that vein, the uniforms in Star Trek (2009) aren't exactly TOS uniforms either. In certain senses, e.g. color scheme, they are closer to the TOS uniforms than the TMP ones, but in others, e.g. rank braids, the TMP ones are closer. One could argue that both nuTrek and TMP uniforms are overall closer to TOS uniforms than the TWOK ones.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The original TOS uniforms were great for 1960's television, but were too garish and dated-looking by the time TMP was made--they would have to been modified with darker colors and overall remade in a more flattering contemporary style like they were in Star Trek XI.

But I think the uniforms really needed to change in TMP to signify that some time had passed since Kirk's 5-year mission, IMO.

And, in that vein, the uniforms in Star Trek (2009) aren't exactly TOS uniforms either. In certain senses, e.g. color scheme, they are closer to the TOS uniforms than the TMP ones, but in others, e.g. rank braids, the TMP ones are closer. One could argue that both nuTrek and TMP uniforms are overall closer to TOS uniforms than the TWOK ones.

I agree. The Star Trek XI uniforms are similar to the ones in TOS, but they're not identical. They even undergo a slight modification in Star Trek XII--gone are the dark brownish-grey leather biker pants in lieu of more comfortable dark grey pants.

The TWOK uniforms do represent a major departure from both the TOS and TMP uniforms, but if you ever looked closely at the TWOK rank pin chart, you can see a vague correlation with the TOS rank stripes in the number of bars some of the pins have (captains have three bars, commanders have two bars, and lieutenants have one bar).

 

[CorporalClegg]

The TWOK uniforms are terrible. I don't know why people like them so much. Out of all of the uniforms Trek ever had, they were the uniforms that looked most like a costume/facsimile. Pseudo military is just never a good idea. Because, as I said, it just looks like dress-up. Along those same lines, that ridiculous fruit salad Meyer tried to pull-off with the brass in TUC was just awful. I actually facepalmed when I first saw it, and I was ten.

The pajamas are campy and silly, but it's Star Trek doing it's own thing. It's why they work.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The TWOK uniforms were the first Trek uniforms to have different ones for officers and enlisted and they did give Starfleet personnel a very unified look with maroon being the dominant color for everyone. The wraparound jackets were kind of stylish when they were first introduced, and they did eventually reintroduce skirts for female officers, although they did the right thing by having them be optional (IMO).

I do kind of chalk those uniforms up to representing a period of Starfleet history in which exploration did take something of a backseat to Federation defense and interstellar diplomacy. Otherwise, I always liked the TWOK uniforms, and they're only second to the First Contact uniforms for me.

 

[BillJ]

The original TOS uniforms were great for 1960's television, but were too garish and dated-looking by the time TMP was made--they would have to been modified with darker colors and overall remade in a more flattering contemporary style like they were in Star Trek XI.

I disagree. The TNG uniforms looked good on both the small and big screen and the colors aren't very far from what we saw on TOS.

But I think the uniforms really needed to change in TMP to signify that some time had passed since Kirk's 5-year mission, IMO.

Bingo.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The original TOS uniforms were great for 1960's television, but were too garish and dated-looking by the time TMP was made--they would have to been modified with darker colors and overall remade in a more flattering contemporary style like they were in Star Trek XI.

I disagree. The TNG uniforms looked good on both the small and big screen and the colors aren't very far from what we saw on TOS.

I actually didn't like how the TNG uniforms looked in Generations. I dunno, they looked fine on the small screen, but on the big screen...I remember sitting in the theatre and hoping for a new uniform design for the next movie.

 

[BillJ]

I actually didn't like how the TNG uniforms looked in Generations. I dunno, they looked fine on the small screen, but on the big screen...I remember sitting in the theatre and hoping for a new uniform design for the next movie.

I really wished they would have kept the TV series look, the First Contact uniforms were so drab. The splash of color might've kept the Enterprise-E from seeming like such a depressing place.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The TWOK uniforms were the first Trek uniforms to have different ones for officers and enlisted and they did give Starfleet personnel a very unified look with maroon being the dominant color for everyone. The wraparound jackets were kind of stylish when they were first introduced, and they did eventually reintroduce skirts for female officers, although they did the right thing by having them be optional (IMO).

I do kind of chalk those uniforms up to representing a period of Starfleet history in which exploration did take something of a backseat to Federation defense and interstellar diplomacy. Otherwise, I always liked the TWOK uniforms, and they're only second to the First Contact uniforms for me.

One thing—to my knowledge, it was never established canonically on screen, but I always took the TOS jumpsuits as the uniforms for enlisted personnel (except when characters such as McCoy wore them in special situations such as in sickbay).

Tangential question: Was a female ever seen wearing one of those TOS jumpsuits? Uhura and Janice Lester had a sickbay nightie, but that wasn't the same.

 

[marksound]

The only thing that would have made TMP better is if Shatner had worn the "Jim" rug instead of the "Proto-TJ Curly".

That looks awesome! I'm going to take some screencaps tonight and make my own photo manipulations.

Lots of fun info about Shat's rug here: http://shatnerstoupee.blogspot.com

 

[J.T.B.]

The original TOS uniforms were great for 1960's television, but were too garish and dated-looking by the time TMP was made--they would have to been modified with darker colors and overall remade in a more flattering contemporary style like they were in Star Trek XI.

Agreed, the real-life fashion palette had changed enough that the '60s colors were just not going to cut it; they would have looked dated, not futuristic. Also, I don't think the material, tailoring and finish quality of the TV uniforms would benefit from being seen on the big screen, so even if they went with the same styles they would have had to be updated in certain ways.

The TWOK uniforms were the first Trek uniforms to have different ones for officers and enlisted...

To me that is the most unforgivable part of the TWOK uniforms era, which I don't like overall. Dividing the officers -- in a very dressy, ornate and status-reinforcing style -- from the enlisted in their utilitarian one-piece, suggesting underclass status, was contrary to everything we have seen about Starfleet before and, really, since. Emphasizing class distinctions was very 1980s, but doesn't seem consonant with Federation or Starfleet ideals.

One thing—to my knowledge, it was never established canonically on screen, but I always took the TOS jumpsuits as the uniforms for enlisted personnel (except when characters such as McCoy wore them in special situations such as in sickbay).

I think the coveralls were for certain kinds of work, not related to rank. Lt. Kyle wore one.

Tangential question: Was a female ever seen wearing one of those TOS jumpsuits? Uhura and Janice Lester had a sickbay nightie, but that wasn't the same.

Uhura wore one (blue!) in "Who Mourns for Adonais" IIRC.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

One thing—to my knowledge, it was never established canonically on screen, but I always took the TOS jumpsuits as the uniforms for enlisted personnel (except when characters such as McCoy wore them in special situations such as in sickbay).

I think the coveralls were for certain kinds of work, not related to rank. Lt. Kyle wore one.

OK. Admittedly, I was influenced by the FJ Tech Manual, which differentiated officers and crew, although it also said that the crew had "ensign grade". I mean, if that's true, and most of the personnel aboard ship were crew who were (somehow) not considered officers, then what else could they have been wearing?

But if one looks in The Making of Star Trek (p. 209 of my edition), one finds:

Although the Enterprise is a military vessel, its organization is only semimilitary. The "enlisted man" category does not exist. Star Trek goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the U.S.S. Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer.

---

Tangential question: Was a female ever seen wearing one of those TOS jumpsuits? Uhura and Janice Lester had a sickbay nightie, but that wasn't the same.

Uhura wore one (blue!) in "Who Mourns for Adonais" IIRC.

Right, when working under her console, though it's on top of her regular uniform. Thanks!

 

[C.E. Evans]

I actually didn't like how the TNG uniforms looked in Generations. I dunno, they looked fine on the small screen, but on the big screen...I remember sitting in the theatre and hoping for a new uniform design for the next movie.

I really wished they would have kept the TV series look, the First Contact uniforms were so drab. The splash of color might've kept the Enterprise-E from seeming like such a depressing place.

I think that kind of describes the way Trek had started to look towards the end of the Berman era. The sets started to become more and more murky in color and having mostly black uniforms didn't help. Even the sets of ENT had a somewhat washout look with the exception of the sickbay.

The TWOK uniforms were the first Trek uniforms to have different ones for officers and enlisted...

To me that is the most unforgivable part of the TWOK uniforms era, which I don't like overall. Dividing the officers -- in a very dressy, ornate and status-reinforcing style -- from the enlisted in their utilitarian one-piece, suggesting underclass status, was contrary to everything we have seen about Starfleet before and, really, since. Emphasizing class distinctions was very 1980s, but doesn't seem consonant with Federation or Starfleet ideals.

I can see where you're coming from and can even appreciate it, but I think the uniforms of that era was something of a homage to the navies of ancient Earth--in particular, the Old British Navy maybe--in which officers and enlisted did wear different uniforms. In the TWOK era, some enlisted personnel may even have preferred the utilitarian jumpsuits because they thought the wraparound officer jackets were too stuffy perhaps.

 

[marksound]

Dividing the officers -- in a very dressy, ornate and status-reinforcing style -- from the enlisted in their utilitarian one-piece, suggesting underclass status, was contrary to everything we have seen about Starfleet before and, really, since. Emphasizing class distinctions was very 1980s, but doesn't seem consonant with Federation or Starfleet ideals.

But it is very military. Like it or not, no matter what any script says, Starfleet is military. It has to be in order to function.

Imagine some new recruit, pissed at his superior for assigning ... I don't know, latrine duty ... saying "DUDE, NO WAY! I QUIT!"

Starfleet is not McDonald's.

Though, now that I think about it, McD's management does have a completely different uniform than line crew.

So, there you go.

 

[J.T.B.]

I can see where you're coming from and can even appreciate it, but I think the uniforms of that era was something of a homage to the navies of ancient Earth--in particular, the Old British Navy maybe--in which officers and enlisted did wear different uniforms.

Well, number one, it seems odd to want to pay homage to a system where social class defined the educational and occupational opportunities one could aspire to, which was reflected in the uniform differences. And two, why in the world would Starfleet one day decide to change in that direction? "You know what, our uniforms don't emphasize enough that there's a big status difference between officers and enlisted personnel. Let's fancy up the officers' dress and put the enlisted in their place."

But it is very military. Like it or not, no matter what any script says, Starfleet is military. It has to be in order to function.

Not anymore. Most military services today have adopted officer and enlisted uniforms that are identical or nearly so. The traditional naval sailor uniform is only seen on formal occasions; what's worn on normal duty differs only in insignia and small details. Modern day enlisted personnel are expected to be educated and skilled professionals, not brute labor and cannon fodder, and uniforms are reflecting that more and more.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I can see where you're coming from and can even appreciate it, but I think the uniforms of that era was something of a homage to the navies of ancient Earth--in particular, the Old British Navy maybe--in which officers and enlisted did wear different uniforms.

Well, number one, it seems odd to want to pay homage to a system where social class defined the educational and occupational opportunities one could aspire to, which was reflected in the uniform differences. And two, why in the world would Starfleet one day decide to change in that direction? "You know what, our uniforms don't emphasize enough that there's a big status difference between officers and enlisted personnel. Let's fancy up the officers' dress and put the enlisted in their place."

I don't think it's really class distinction as an old naval tradition, and in that sense, Starfleet doesn't reflect civilian life within the Federation.

 

[J.T.B.]

I don't think it's really class distinction as an old naval tradition, and in that sense, Starfleet doesn't reflect civilian life within the Federation.

But as I said, that kind of "tradition" has largely died out in navies of today, why revive it? Especially since Starfleet's own established tradition up to that point seemed to be for officers and enlisted to dress almost exactly alike.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I don't think it's really class distinction as an old naval tradition, and in that sense, Starfleet doesn't reflect civilian life within the Federation.

But as I said, that kind of "tradition" has largely died out in navies of today, why revive it? Especially since Starfleet's own established tradition up to that point seemed to be for officers and enlisted to dress almost exactly alike.

Things change, and Starfleet has always been kind of arbitrary about what naval traditions they observe and others they ignore, IMO.

 

[J.T.B.]

Things change, and Starfleet has always been kind of arbitrary about what naval traditions they observe and others they ignore, IMO.

But that doesn't address the question of why. I don't see any plausible reason for a change that seems so at odds with the organization's previous standards and values.

 

[Relayer1]

If there was one thing that wasn't wrong with the film it was the direction.

...and the music, and the cast, and the special effects, and the ENTERPRISE!

Still in my top 3 Trekfilms. Can't decide where though...