Would TMP have been better had they used the TOS uniforms?

[mos6507]

Indeed Shatner says he ran and worked out frantically for TMP. Time well spent...

Although he didn't wax his body hair off the way he did in the TOS days, so you see his hairy arms in the short-sleeved shirt. Then you have Bones beaming aboard looking like a cross between a hippie and a pimp. TMP is the epitome of 70s leisure-suit sensibilities. No other live-action Trek has that 70s vibe to it, which is why I still like TMP, although I'm also glad they moved on afterwards. A little of that goes a long way.

 

[Lance]

Indeed Shatner says he ran and worked out frantically for TMP. Time well spent...

Although he didn't wax his body hair off the way he did in the TOS days, so you see his hairy arms in the short-sleeved shirt.

He may not have had hairy arms in the TOS days, but he certainly had hairy armpits.

http://images.wikia.com/startrek/images/archive/6/65/20100629155834!Mirror_Kirk.jpg

 

[J.T.B.]

Which in a real sense, is my point. Trying to adhere Starfleet to real-world organizations doesn't really work all the time, because Starfleet doesn't really have a real-world counterpart that is exactly like it. Starfleet can indeed have its own rationale for doing things--the look of its ships, the look of its uniforms, certain policies, etc.--and as such, the idea that it can do things because it simply wants to is likely valid (if not often the case) in many situations.

I don't understand this point. An organization can't want to do anything, and when the people who run it make changes, they make them for some underlying reason. Making large-scale decisions based on personal whims is not realistic, no matter the century.

Depending solely on how you view Starfleet. In fact, I think the majority of issues people might have with Starfleet is when there are points of direct incompatibility with present or historical organizations, and in such instances, the easiest way to reconcile them is by looking at Starfleet is as its own thing with frequently its own way of doing things.

But my criticism wasn't based on incompatibility with the real world, but with its own established precedent.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Which in a real sense, is my point. Trying to adhere Starfleet to real-world organizations doesn't really work all the time, because Starfleet doesn't really have a real-world counterpart that is exactly like it. Starfleet can indeed have its own rationale for doing things--the look of its ships, the look of its uniforms, certain policies, etc.--and as such, the idea that it can do things because it simply wants to is likely valid (if not often the case) in many situations.

I don't understand this point.

I don't know why, it's real simple: Starfleet sometimes has its own reasons for doing things. It can't get any more simpler than that, truly.

An organization can't want to do anything, and when the people who run it make changes, they make them for some underlying reason. Making large-scale decisions based on personal whims is not realistic, no matter the century.

See above statement.

Depending solely on how you view Starfleet. In fact, I think the majority of issues people might have with Starfleet is when there are points of direct incompatibility with present or historical organizations, and in such instances, the easiest way to reconcile them is by looking at Starfleet is as its own thing with frequently its own way of doing things.

But my criticism wasn't based on incompatibility with the real world, but with its own established precedent.

The only established precedent about Starfleet uniforms is that they frequently change. In light of any onscreen explanation for why they change, all we can go on is speculation and change just for the sake of change is as valid an idea as any other.

 

[J.T.B.]

The only established precedent about Starfleet uniforms is that they frequently change. In light of any onscreen explanation for why they change, all we can go on is speculation and change just for the sake of change is as valid an idea as any other.

No, it's really not as valid as any other. Large organizations with vast assets and many thousands of personnel do not make large institutional changes just for the sake of change, that's just not realistic.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The only established precedent about Starfleet uniforms is that they frequently change. In light of any onscreen explanation for why they change, all we can go on is speculation and change just for the sake of change is as valid an idea as any other.

No, it's really not as valid as any other.

Of course it is. You may not like it, but things do happen for arbitrary reasons or simply for reasons you disagree with.

 

[BillJ]

The only established precedent about Starfleet uniforms is that they frequently change. In light of any onscreen explanation for why they change, all we can go on is speculation and change just for the sake of change is as valid an idea as any other.

No, it's really not as valid as any other. Large organizations with vast assets and many thousands of personnel do not make large institutional changes just for the sake of change, that's just not realistic.

Yet we watch Starfleet do it all the time.

 

[J.T.B.]

Of course it is. You may not like it, but things do happen for arbitrary reasons or simply for reasons you disagree with.

We may not know the reason, but that's not the same as saying that things happen for no real reason other than change for its own sake. If you think Starfleet is the kind of organization where the top admiral can wake up one morning and say, "I think we need a change. Fancy maroon uniforms for everyone, make it so!" then you picture a very different type of organization than I do.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Of course it is. You may not like it, but things do happen for arbitrary reasons or simply for reasons you disagree with.

We may not know the reason, but that's not the same as saying that things happen for no real reason other than change for its own sake.

But change for its own sake is indeed as real a reason as any other.

If you think Starfleet is the kind of organization where the top admiral can wake up one morning and say, "I think we need a change. Fancy maroon uniforms for everyone, make it so!" then you picture a very different type of organization than I do.

I see Starfleet as it's own thing. And truly, the reason for the change of uniforms in TWOK could really be as simple as a decision from TPTB to give Starfleet personnel a public makeover after the TMP uniforms had run their course.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Large organizations with vast assets and many thousands of personnel do not make large institutional changes just for the sake of change, that's just not realistic.

And yet ST:TMP established that Starfleet vessels had "spray 'n' wear" clothing. See the Ilia Probe cool-down sequence. (The novelization and background press releases explained a lot of what we were seeing.) Surely uniform redesigns in this era are a simple matter of changing a computer command?

How often do we see airlines change all their flight attendants uniforms? Fashions change quickly and corporate uniforms can become dated if they don't keep pace.

 

[FormerLurker]

TMP never expressed explicitly that all the uniforms were "spray 'n' wear", though. Just the robe the Ilia probe wore was even presented as such. As the other uniforms put on the appearance of pajamas, or worse, underwear in far too many instances, it's possible that Starfleet decided to move away from a style that at least looked flimsy and easily damaged, and toward one that, for all its formality, would stand up to constant wear.

 

[Maurice]

"Looked flimsy" doesn't mean actually flimsy, any more than the other uniforms would "stand up to constant wear".

 

[mos6507]

Think of how often a TOS shirt got torn to shreds. They even joked about that cliche in Galaxy Quest. Trek uniforms were always flimsy and very rarely did they use those excursion jackets. The Khan style uniforms looked like they could take the most beating, and the wardrobe dept did get a lot of mileage out of them. Supposedly some of the uniforms originally created for Khan were still in use through Trek VI, although they were fraying by then.

 

[sbk1234]

Has anybody made the necessary comment that had they used the TOS uniforms, the movie would have been enhanced by the audience being able to enjoy viewing the shapely legs of the female Enterprise crew.

 

[Psion]

Think of how often a TOS shirt got torn to shreds. They even joked about that cliche in Galaxy Quest. Trek uniforms were always flimsy and very rarely did they use those excursion jackets. The Khan style uniforms looked like they could take the most beating, and the wardrobe dept did get a lot of mileage out of them. Supposedly some of the uniforms originally created for Khan were still in use through Trek VI, although they were fraying by then.

TOS uniforms could have been made out of Kevlar-reinforced denim and Kirk's shirt still would have gotten torn regularly. It was a common trope in 1960s TV action series for the leading man to get stripped of his shirt by his heroics.

I concede that the TWOK uniforms looked heavier and possibly more durable, but they also looked terribly overwrought. If those jackets had been dress jackets for a standard duty uniform underneath, I think the look would have been more compatible with previous efforts to represent quasi-military uniforms in the Trek universe. Imagine if, after Kirk's inspection of the Enterprise, the crew ditched the jackets to reveal something more familiar and less formal underneath.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

Think of how often a TOS shirt got torn to shreds. They even joked about that cliche in Galaxy Quest. Trek uniforms were always flimsy and very rarely did they use those excursion jackets. The Khan style uniforms looked like they could take the most beating, and the wardrobe dept did get a lot of mileage out of them. Supposedly some of the uniforms originally created for Khan were still in use through Trek VI, although they were fraying by then.

TOS uniforms could have been made out of Kevlar-reinforced denim and Kirk's shirt still would have gotten torn regularly. It was a common trope in 1960s TV action series for the leading man to get stripped of his shirt by his heroics.

I concede that the TWOK uniforms looked heavier and possibly more durable, but they also looked terribly overwrought. If those jackets had been dress jackets for a standard duty uniform underneath, I think the look would have been more compatible with previous efforts to represent quasi-military uniforms in the Trek universe. Imagine if, after Kirk's inspection of the Enterprise, the crew ditched the jackets to reveal something more familiar and less formal underneath.

The Turtleneck shirts with the matching vest Kirk wore on the Genesis Cave would have made good daily wear.

 

[FormerLurker]

This is an "If Only" speculation, but it's possible that someone somewhere along the line had that intention. I for one would have liked to see it.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

This is an "If Only" speculation, but it's possible that someone somewhere along the line had that intention. I for one would have liked to see it.

Not sure if your referring to my post but, in ST III when Savvik wasn't wearing her big WOK excursion Jacket, she had the turtleneck with vest outfit on under.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Uniforms? That was one of the least of that movie's problems. Glacial pacing, dull characters, and a story that was nothing more than Nomad redux were some of the things needed to make that snooze fest a better film than uniforms.

 

[FormerLurker]

CaptainMurdock, I was indeed referring to your post Directly Above Mine.