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Would "Star Trek: The Return" have made for a good film?

Would Shatner's "Star Trek: The Return" have made for a good film?


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Emperor-Tiberius

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In 1996, following the reception of "Generations", William Shatner published an idea he had proposed to Paramount about a Borg film, which resurrected previously death James T. Kirk, to kill Jean-Luc Picard. Shatner wrote the novel with the valuable assistance of Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens, two prolific Trek writers, well-known for their "Federation" and "Prime Directive" novels.

I wonder now, supposedly, supposedly, Berman and co. had decided, in 1998 or 2000 or somewhere that times, they had decided to film this story (I am aware that its highly unlikely such an event would ever occur - filiming a published Trek novel, that is - but for the sake of argument, ok?) and had the right to alter the storyline slightly (not by much, of course) to better fit as a prequel to FC and all that....

My question now, is, given these circumnstances... Would it have been a good film? And what would you change in the story itself, if you could?

NOTE: This is of course, better directed to those who have read the novel at one point in their lives. I really would not be interested in a Shatner mock-thread.

So, what do you think?
 
I think it could have been an ok film, having read the book. But I don't think anyone outside of trek would have liked it. I mean the book had so many references to itself or previous trek that it would have been a hard pill to swallow for any non fans
 
I have to admit I lost interest in the Shatnerverse after Avenger (the third volume of his first trilogy). Too much ego-stroking, too much fan service. The Ashes of Eden was really good, though.
 
Shatner did, in fact, pitch the idea to Berman in late '94 or early '95, who turned it down, as it wasn't the direction he wanted to go.

I think that a film based on the premise -- probably called "The Fires of Olympus," as the novel was originally titled -- wouldn't have been anywhere near as fanwanky. Maybe no V'Ger connection. Maybe no zombie Kirk kicking the asses of Picard's entire former crew. I would have loved to have seen it, though.
 
Yes, it would have been an excellent film -- and still could be.

And I think that the subsequent "Preservers" novel is probably the best-ever "Trek" story of all time, whether film, TV or prose.
 
Not being much of a borg fan I think another type of story would be better. Perhaps using Q or some other means to bring Kirk back or even just that slight loophole about the Nexus that they left in Generations.
However I don't think they should've brought back kirk without the rest of the crew. At the very least not without bones and spock.
 
Yes, but with story alterations to improve upon it. For example, probably dial back all the continuity porn and the cameos and make the new Enterprise, the real new Enterprise.
 
No. It was an enjoyable enough book, but I never had any desire to see it filmed. Too much Super-Kirk and fanwank. And the whole V'Ger-Borg connection is best forgotten.
 
Is that the one where Kirk is resurrected by Borg nanobots and the Romulans and Borg are working together or something?

No.
 
The whole Romulan-Borg alliance is a loopy idea. Besides, Shatner already had his vanity project with Star Trek V.
 
I loved Shatner's first three "TekWar" novels - and "The Ashes of Eden" but "The Return" was very fanwanky (and I usually love a bit of fanwank), and then "Avenger" was dreadful.

Kirk returning from death in the movies? Ick. Not necessary.
 
"The Return" has some movie potential. It has an epic storyline with the fate of the galaxy at stake - it feels big.

Nevertheless, it definitely would need some fine-tuning before it could work as a Star Trek movie. Like others already said, Kirk should be a little less larger-than-life and some other things.

Regarding the V'Ger thing: I think the possibility of a V'Ger-Borg connection has already been discussed several times, and for me, it only works on a very superficial level. Although it is an interesting idea, a closer look reveals that the concept of V'Ger pretty much negates everything we know about the Borg. Well, but that's just my opinion.
 
"The Return" has some movie potential. It has an epic storyline with the fate of the galaxy at stake - it feels big.
I always believed that, too.

Nevertheless, it definitely would need some fine-tuning before it could work as a Star Trek movie. Like others already said, Kirk should be a little less larger-than-life and some other things.
I definitely agree to that.

"Regarding the V'Ger thing: I think the possibility of a V'Ger-Borg connection has already been discussed several times, and for me, it only works on a very superficial level. Although it is an interesting idea, a closer look reveals that the concept of V'Ger pretty much negates everything we know about the Borg. Well, but that's just my opinion.
Now, I will disagree with you here. First of all, Roddenberry himself said that the Borg's originating planet is the one V'Ger visited. Second, the Star Trek Encyclopedia refers to the V'Ger having been modified by the Borg.

So I don't really think it would trivialize neither the Borg, nor V'Ger, by this connection. If anything, it gives a grimmer fate for both Decker and Ilya, and serves as a demonstration of the Borg's awesome technological capabilities.

So I believe that it is, impretive for that connection to have stayed. It connects TMP with TNG, in a meaningful way - and serves as a mini-tribute to Roddenberry himself, you know...
 
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I believe, that "The Return", would've been, and could've been, an excellent movie. Certainly TNG's second best, if handled properly. And a better send-out to Kirk than that atrocity that generated the novel in the first place.

However, despite loving the novel, I'm not blind to its flaws. While not as Kirk-centric as "Avenger" or "Preserver" later were, it still has problem that hurt its structure. So here's the changes I'd offer:

0) Using that opening from Trek III, start with Picard finding Kirk's body and then going all the way through to where the camera pans up after seeing Kirk's grave. We hear Shatner do the opening as it is for TNG. Then we hear the main theme from Trek III, as we all of Veridian III. A time lapse as the day turns to night and ending with the camera paning back down to Kirk's grave. Spock standing over it, just like in the book. We see Riker and the Away Team from the Farragut (sp) beam down. The camera closes up to Riker as he looks at Spock. Then we see his point of view. As it closes up, we hear the end of the opening theme. Which matches up in Trek III as when Kirk is standing in the turbolift after leaving the bridge.
1) No Worf. Maybe one scene where Borg-Kirk wants to ask him questions, but such scene won't be like in the novel: Worf is off to deliver Alexander to the Rozehnkos, on a space station (not DS9) following the Enterprise's fall, just before he's off for that monastery he mentioned he were in "The Way of the Warror". Worf feels Kirk coming, and they fight. Unlike the novel, Kirk loses to Worf, and Worf never learns he kicked Kirk's butt, as he's transported back from Salatrel (the novel's main villain). After that, we don't see Worf again.
2) Geordi has no visor in this story. As a result of the Ent-D incident, he decides to have his eyes be as they will be, retroactively speaking, in "First Contact. Have his and Data's expedition on Trilex be Geordi's first demonstration on those "new" eyes of his.
3) Insert a Picard-Crusher scene when they're travelling on the Borg cube in transwarp speed, with Picard explaining his feelings over the loss of Ent-D, the 8 years above it, and his own state of loss for his brother and nephew. A meaty scene for Picard, in general.
4) Flesh out Data a bit. Have him experience an emotional breakdown while on DS9, as he accesses his memories of the previous 10 years, and refers to Lal and Lore and all those events that, with the emotion chip in place, have gotten to hurt him. I essentially propose for Ronald D. Moore's original idea to be used here. It'd be a great scene, provided its not played for laughs, of course.
5) Have one definite Big Three scene, after Spock-Kirk-Picard have had the mind melded. Have Spock and Bones discuss how it was for these 80 years he was away. How they coped with his loss, and how Spock always maintained he never died. Have Kirk aknowledge his mistakes and falls, and his sense of guilt over what he did when in Borg mode.
6) Expand a little on that scene with Picard-Kirk, where they talk about their ships. Have mentions to Kirk's son, David, and his brother, George Samuel, in relation to Picard's loss of Robert and Renie.
7) Absolutely keep the V'Ger-Borg connection.
8) Instead of Kirk's maneuver saving the day, have Picard do the "Picard maneuver", slightly altered though, thus giving him a good part.
9) Of course, have a Sovereign class starship assigned for the Borg homeworld mission ahead - strongly implying that this will end up being the next Enterprise.
10) The transwarp drives on the new ship, because of the incompatible technology, will only serve to bring the Enterprise crew to the Borg Homeworld, and back to Federation - thus explaining that, Federation didn't have a chance of replicating this kind of technology.
11) Once the Borg homeworld is destroyed, have a brief silence over the sacrifice of Kirk, then have a Picard-Riker scene, where we see Picard finally coming to terms with his family's deaths, and tying up those loose ends from GEN (which GEN obviously didn't).
12) Afterwards, have Data assigned to escort Ambassador Spock back to Romulus, and then, have Riker tell Picard that Spock's not convinced that Kirk's dead. When Picard says "There are always, possibilities", the camera pans to space. Then, we hear the "Space, the final frontier" speech, done similarly as in the TNG one, this time by Patrick Stewart. As he says "To boldly go where no one has gone before", the Sovereign-class starship goes to warp, and credits.

Overally, "Star Trek: The Return" would have been an excellent movie. Of course, it would've been cool to adapt all of Shatner's Trek novels, but the absences of Dr McCoy and Scotty would really be felt. It would serve as a great bridge movie, solidifying the necessity of the desperate time-travel scheme hatched by the Borg in "First Contact" - and giving "The Motion Picture" an anchor to the other films that even the Director's Edition seems to lack, thus making the movies as a whole, a series of their own, instead of the one-off adventures they have ended up being after VI.
 
"Regarding the V'Ger thing: I think the possibility of a V'Ger-Borg connection has already been discussed several times, and for me, it only works on a very superficial level. Although it is an interesting idea, a closer look reveals that the concept of V'Ger pretty much negates everything we know about the Borg. Well, but that's just my opinion.
Now, I will disagree with you here. First of all, Roddenberry himself said that the Borg's originating planet is the one V'Ger visited. Second, the Star Trek Encyclopedia refers to the V'Ger having been modified by the Borg.
No, the Encyclopedia doesn't. The "Borg" entry makes no mention of V'Ger, and vice-versa.

So I don't really think it would trivialize neither the Borg, nor V'Ger, by this connection. If anything, it gives a grimmer fate for both Decker and Ilya, and serves as a demonstration of the Borg's awesome technological capabilities.

So I believe that it is, impretive for that connection to have stayed. It connects TMP with TNG, in a meaningful way - and serves as a mini-tribute to Roddenberry himself, you know...
Does everything in Trek have to be connected to everything else? Honestly, you'd think the universe could be just a tiny bit bigger, and that there could be more than one race of "living machines" out there. It makes for an entertaining theory in the novel, but it really does limit the kinds of stories you can tell.
 
Does everything in Trek have to be connected to everything else? Honestly, you'd think the universe could be just a tiny bit bigger, and that there could be more than one race of "living machines" out there. It makes for an entertaining theory in the novel, but it really does limit the kinds of stories you can tell.
I'm sorry that you see it as the end of the world, but I don't find like a big deal. It just explains something that I personally always wanted to know. The notion that the Borg had something to do with V'Ger, for that matter, has enhanced my viewing of TMP even since I read this story.

Seriously, I don't get the heat with this subject... Its not like TMP set the stone with how that Machine Planet were... And considering the Borg, it only makes sense.
 
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