Would "Star Trek: The Return" have made for a good film?

[cardinal biggles]

End of the world? That's a little over-dramatic, don't you think?

V'Ger's connection with the Borg doesn't make any sense, and it certainly doesn't fit with what we know of the Borg.

That's not to say I'm not a fan of this connect-the-dots sort of retcon when it's done well; Peter David's references to "The Doomsday Machine" in Vendetta were interesting, and they served the story. And while Trelane being part of the Q Continuum doesn't exactly match up with his portrayal in "The Squire of Gothos," it still made for interesting storytelling in Q-Squared.

 

[HoundDog]

Does everything in Trek have to be connected to everything else? Honestly, you'd think the universe could be just a tiny bit bigger, and that there could be more than one race of "living machines" out there. It makes for an entertaining theory in the novel, but it really does limit the kinds of stories you can tell.

I'm sorry that you see it as the end of the world, but I don't find like a big deal. It just explains something that I personally always wanted to know. The notion that the Borg had something to do with V'Ger, for that matter, has enhanced my viewing of TMP even since I read this story.

Seriously, I don't get the heat with this subject... Its not like TMP set the stone with how that Machine Planet were... And considering the Borg, it only makes sense.

It's not that I'm absolutely opposed to the idea. To make such a connection is a fascinating thought, but I just can't buy that V'Ger was modified by the Borg. I mean, refitting an old probe and sending it back in search for its creator does not seem like something the Borg would do. What would be their motivation?

 

[RobertScorpio]

THE RETURN, as a movie, would have been light years better than FC-Insurrection-Nemeis all put together, THAT is how bad those TNG movies were, FC included!

Rob

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

End of the world? That's a little over-dramatic, don't you think?

Thats the idea of the reference.

V'Ger's connection with the Borg doesn't make any sense, and it certainly doesn't fit with what we know of the Borg.

I beg to disagree. But, to each his/her own.

That's not to say I'm not a fan of this connect-the-dots sort of retcon when it's done well; Peter David's references to "The Doomsday Machine" in Vendetta were interesting, and they served the story. And while Trelane being part of the Q Continuum doesn't exactly match up with his portrayal in "The Squire of Gothos," it still made for interesting storytelling in Q-Squared.

At least at that much we can agree. I recently re-read Q-Squared as well, and I thought it was fantastic! Definitely a pity that William Campbell didn't co-read the novel with DeLancie... Would've been one step closer to the dream.

 

[cardinal biggles]

There would be no motivation. An Earth probe launched in the 1970s would be ridiculously primitive to the Borg. And the machine planet fixed V'Ger, gave it the ship with its data storage abilities, and sent it along its merry way. The Borg don't do that.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

THE RETURN, as a movie, would have been light years better than FC-Insurrection-Nemeis all put together, THAT is how bad those TNG movies were, FC included!

I wouldn't go THAT far, but definitely better than INS-NEM, and GEN.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

It's not that I'm absolutely opposed to the idea. To make such a connection is a fascinating thought, but I just can't buy that V'Ger was modified by the Borg. I mean, refitting an old probe and sending it back in search for its creator does not seem like something the Borg would do. What would be their motivation?

There would be no motivation. An Earth probe launched in the 1970s would be ridiculously primitive to the Borg. And the machine planet fixed V'Ger, gave it the ship with its data storage abilities, and sent it along its merry way. The Borg don't do that.

A) Its not 1970's, its more like 1990's. Specifically, 1999.

B) Like Spock says in the novel, V'Ger was reconfigured by a different branch of the Borg collective. It is, very clearly, noted that the Borg of the time were different. Specifically, it describes that the Borg that confirgured V'Ger did a different sort of assimilation. It also possessed the same Borg root-command structure with which the Borg Homeworld linked all those different branches together. Thus, V'Ger, was its own different branch of that collective, just as Hugh was a different branch of the collective, but different because of its self-awareness.

Really, if you want V'Ger-Borg not to fit as a theory, its fine. But don't go around saying "its impossible", because there IS indication to support otherwise.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Please present this evidence.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I really don't understand why is it so hard to even consider the possibility. And even if you don't, I also don't understand why you must insist that others cannot consider it.

I mean, V'Ger pretty much uttered "Resistance is futile" for the first time, no?

 

[Smiley]

I voted for the second option. The Return has a lot of cool stuff, but many of the references and character inclusions of the book are gratuitous. For a mass audience movie, reminding them of V'Ger and the movie that put them to sleep in the 1970s is not the way to go.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I voted for the second option. The Return has a lot of cool stuff, but many of the references and character inclusions of the book are gratuitous. For a mass audience movie, reminding them of V'Ger and the movie that put them to sleep in the 1970s is not the way to go.

On the contrary, reminding of the first Trek feature, the most expensive and visually interesting of all Trek films, is not that bad an idea. TMP's problem was its longevity, but the film delivered what it promised - a 2001 take on Star Trek.

And, as I mentioned, "The Return" would've made the movie more important, giving it a sense of purpose, a reason to being.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

I really don't understand why is it so hard to even consider the possibility.

Because like the "Trelayne is Q" theory, it only makes sense on a very superficial level.

And as to Roddenberry's remarks about the machine planet V'Ger visited being the Borg homeworld, I always took that as a joke. Much like his comment that the movie Klingon's were "Southern Klingons" and the TOS Klingons were "Northern Klingons" or some such.

I mean, V'Ger pretty much uttered "Resistance is futile" for the first time, no?

Nope. It is Spock who tells Kirk that "any sort of resistance would be futile" when they attempted to break free of V'Ger's tractor beam.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

And, as I mentioned, "The Return" would've made the movie more important, giving it a sense of purpose, a reason to being.

That is easily the silliest notion I have heard in quite a while around here. Even assuming that TMP needed such things, which I don't think it does, I don't see how having a fan-wanky connection to the Borg, which makes no sense based on what we know of either entity, would rectify the situation.

 

[cardinal biggles]

I really don't understand why is it so hard to even consider the possibility.

Probably because while at the time I read The Return it sounded like an interesting theory, subsequent viewings of The Motion Picture and the various Borg-related episodes of TNG have led me to the conclusion that what the Reeves-Stevenses came up with was silly fanwank.

And even if you don't, I also don't understand why you must insist that others cannot consider it.

Where did I insist that others cannot consider it? All I wanted was an explanation of why you thought it was a valid possibility. You're going to have to do better than Spock's "any sort of resistance would be futile" line — an interesting coincidence but nothing more — if you want to convince me otherwise.

And, as I mentioned, "The Return" would've made the movie more important, giving it a sense of purpose, a reason to being.

That is easily the silliest notion I have heard in quite a while around here. Even assuming that TMP needed such things, which I don't think it does, I don't see how having a fan-wanky connection to the Borg, which makes no sense based on what we know of either entity, would rectify the situation.

QFT.

 

[Zeppster]

There would need to be a lot of changes including story and character changes.

 

[Natural]

Sure, especially when you consider when TNG movies were only 1 for 4. Would have taken some re-working to get it into screenplay form, but it's a much better (end?) for Kirk than a fist fight with an old man atop a mountain. If the other TNG movies had been a bit better I think I'd be a little more hesisitant to even consider this, but really, nothing could be worse than Nemesis.

 

[cardinal biggles]

That's like saying because three of the four TNG films were elephant shit, that donkey shit would be an improvement.

But it's still shit!

 

[Saul]

I liked the idea of V'ger's homeword being possibly the Borg planet. I thought that when I watched the Motion picture and was further excited to see Gene had mentioned this thought also. This is in the ST:chronology book.

Return as a movie would be cool however it would be far too long and the best bits in the book might be lost in film.

Ashes of Eden however would be more suited as a movie I think, very good book.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Roddenberry himself said that the Borg's originating planet is the one V'Ger visited.

No, I believe he said something like, "Who knows? Perhaps the planet of living machines, which repaired Vejur, was the Borg homeworld."

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

And of course the idea of the machine planet being the Borg homeworld falls down once you think about it at all. The planet Voyager VI arrived at was a planet populated by "living machines." The Borg are not "living machines," they are cybernetically enhanced humanoids. The only thing more ridiculous is the fan theory that V'Ger created the Borg...