• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Would Something Like Section 31 Exist in Real Life?

Have you ever heard of the tier system? It worked. Was Lucas or Lucasfilm obligated to follow the EU? No. However it the EU was integrated together far better than Trek Lit was for most of its(Trek) existence. You hand Leland Chee and the Holocron, Pablo Hidalgo, and Sue Rostoni, also Shelly Shapiro at Lucasfilm they kept everything tied together.

It did work for the SW EU, but trek never adopted it. Canon in trek is a much simpler concept, if it happens on screen it's canon, if it happens elsewhere it isn't.

That doesn't detract from the quality of licensed works, nor does it guarantee the quality or the consistency of the canon. It it nonetheless the way the franchise works.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if there was something out there that just uses the CIA as its diversion.

I do wonder if this is possible in the current day and age. My cynical side pretty much assumes that there will always be secrets beyond those publicly acknowledged to at least exist, my practical side wonders notes how difficult keeping those secrets seems to be in this day and age. Part of the demystification of the CIA, MI5, Mossad, whoever, rests on the fact that we have a pretty good idea what they do and how they do it these days. The specifics of any covert operation may not be public, but the modus operandi is by necessity much more open to scrutiny, precisely because the world has far fewer shadows and far more exposure these days.

Bad things still happen, but our perception of those things is based more on the news, the internet and a much more globally aware public than it is on movies, novels and fantasy.
 
The EU did let him go and him knowing about the Vong doesn't make him sympathetic Palpatine wanted to be a dark God of the universe-the Vong were just another step in the way.
And the EU did let him go, his last few Legends appearances were the wonderful Darth Plagueis and maybe another book or something around that time. A maul book I believe.

:vulcan:

Unless it's an advertising jingle, simple repetition doesn't make it any more impressive.

I do wonder if this is possible in the current day and age. My cynical side pretty much assumes that there will always be secrets beyond those publicly acknowledged to at least exist, my practical side wonders notes how difficult keeping those secrets seems to be in this day and age.

That's just what they want you to think.
:shifty:
 
You know, there is a whole "Star Wars Books" thread where we are currently discussing how dumb the Vong were, and how glad we all are that they are no longer canon, though there have been hints of some extra-galatic thread that Palpatine was trying to fight.

Just saying.

As for S31, the novels are not canon and I don't regard them in this conversation. Otherwise, there was that whole incident with Kirk finding out about them.
 
I was wondering for a while if a Democracy/Republic like the United States would have an agency something like Section 31 or would sometimes use the "ends justify the means" way of going about things....

What I have realized from real world politics is that eventually the government gets caught doing it and even if it does get away with it, they get mired in controversy.

I think the best real world example is the "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" during the war against Al Qaeda. Now, I am not here to debate that, but regardless if they worked or not, the Bush administration got into trouble with the world public.

With the book Star Trek: Enterprise: The Good That Men Do, in the 25th century they stood trial for all of their crimes... but I am not sure that that is canon anymore with Star Trek Online.

It's sort of a question for political science... I don't mean to make people mad or anything.

It would be great if it did, maybe they would have prevented the current disaster from unraveling in the US and UK, but, unfortunately, it doesn't.
 
I would say that sometimes governments in legitimate democracies and republics do go beyond the law sometimes, but it can't be everything, otherwise eventually the public would know and kick them out.

The Obama administration's Navy Seal Team Six did (I'm pretty sure) illegally into Pakistan to kill Osama bin Laden, reportedly.

What government agency in the United States would Section 31 mirror? The C.I.A., N.S.A., something else or none?


STO and the novels are separate timelines/universes.

Plus as others have said, not canon.

Is it like how different novel companies have different takes on non-canon, licensed works?
 
What government agency in the United States would Section 31 mirror? The C.I.A., N.S.A., something else or none?

I'd say none.

Sure, organizations the CIA, NSA, FBI, etc. kind of get a bad rap, but in the end all those organizations are still accountable to the government, answer to the President, have to justify their existence and budgets, and operate (mostly) within the law. Section 31 doesn't have ANY of that.

Section 31, in the most literal sense, does whatever it wants. There's nothing more dangerous to a democracy than a group which operates like that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sci
I'd say none.

Sure, organizations the CIA, NSA, FBI, etc. kind of get a bad rap, but in the end all those organizations are still accountable to the government, answer to the President, have to justify their existence and budgets, and operate (mostly) within the law. Section 31 doesn't have ANY of that.

Section 31, in the most literal sense, does whatever it wants. There's nothing more dangerous to a democracy than a group which operates like that.
I have to say that's pretty damn naive. The state apparatuses are goody tissues that diligently report everything they do, say and see to Congress on time like the Girl Scouts.

The CIA has done all sorts of unsavory things-MK-Ultra, Drug running, assassinations, coups, manipulations. Have you ever heard of the Church Committee?

Just recently the CIA spied on Senators and lied to Congress.

The "deep state" and its accompanying apparatuses aren't bound by electoral politics or moral appeals.

And sometimes they act in their own interest or what they deem the "nation's" interest to be.

Really you should do more reading if you think these organizations are innocent of bloodshed or always tell the truth about their activities.
 
I never said the CIA was perfect, or that they never broke the law. But in the end, they are still answerable to the President, and accountable to Congress. Section 31 NEVER is.
 
I never said the CIA was perfect, or that they never broke the law. But in the end, they are still answerable to the President, and accountable to Congress. Section 31 NEVER is.
You really believe that? You really think that if say a President was elected that wanted to scale back their operations or a congress dominated by recently elected socialists they'd just comply?

You don't think they have their own illicit means of financing? You don't think they have some influence over who they supposedly report to?
 
^ I submit that you are at least as naive as you claim that I am, just on opposite extremes. You believe the CIA is an all-powerful evil force that can do whatever it wants at any time, and I...don't. :p

actually, that image is largely a creation of popular entertainment. In reality, the CIA is more bureaucractic and boring than anything else.
 
^ I submit that you are at least as naive as you claim that I am, just on opposite extremes. You believe the CIA is an all-powerful evil force that can do whatever it wants at any time, and I...don't. :p

actually, that image is largely a creation of popular entertainment. In reality, the CIA is more bureaucractic and boring than anything else.
Boring and bureaucratic-that's the post office!

No obviously the CIA can't do everything it wants but to say it's some meek agency that has never and isn't doing anything illegal or sinister is far more naive that attributing God-like powers to the institution.
 
Boring and bureaucratic-that's the post office!

No obviously the CIA can't do everything it wants but to say it's some meek agency that has never and isn't doing anything illegal or sinister is far more naive that attributing God-like powers to the institution.
I don't think he said that.
 
I think the phrase you want is "goody two-shoes".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_Little_Goody_Two-Shoes

Most of the time the CIA overthrew governments, assassinated people, etc., it was by order of the president or at least with his general authorization.

The CIA's power shrank quite a bit in the late 1970s, in reaction to Vietnam, Nixon, Cambodia, domestic surveillance abuses. The CIA didn't like it at all. They did not stage a coup, though.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top