Would like to see Enterprise come back…

[Damian]

That same TOS episode had cloaking devices an amazing new concept, as well ship-to-ship visual communication not existing yet and the prevailing weaponry of the day being atomic bombs. Enterprise (as well as The Beginning script) and Discovery well and truly ignored that, introducing cloaking devices a century before. I don't think they'd have fretted any more about the 2259 date.

The novels did try to explain some of that away. Such as the Romulans refused to show themselves to their enemy or even communicate at all. And they did use atomic weapons in some instances (which they even did in "Balance of Terror"). I give Michael Martin credit for trying to tie the loose ends together and create a story that might explain some of the inconsistencies.

I do sort of think the timing of the war being in the late 2150s is sort of set. We know in canon sources the Federation was born in 2261, and was formed soon after the war. And Enterprise ended in 2154 or 55 (I forget which exactly) and war had not yet broken out. So canon sources seem pretty firm as to when the war could have taken place.

I doubt the current showrunners would do anything to contradict that, if for no other reason they don't seem very interested in exploring the 22nd century outside a few Easter egg references here and there.

 

[FederationHistorian]

If there were to be an ENT revival of some sort, I don't see why they couldn't just set it 17 years later (2172) and just develop a new backstory to fill in what the characters have been up to in the meantime, to match with the flow of time in real life.

Cause 17 years later could also mean 2178, almost 2 decades after the formation of the Federation.

It depends on which story you think is more interesting: Archer as Ambassador to Andoria (2172) or Archer as a Federation Councilman (2178). Maybe both stories can be told; “First Flight” established that Archer basically looks the same over the span of a decade.

And besides, both “Twilight” and “E2” hinted at the future on the ENT timeline, as did the finale and the bios of Archer and Hoshi from IAMD. Kind of like how AGT hinted at the future seen in PIC.

• Archer went from Admiral & Starfleet Chief of Staff (2160s) to Ambassador to Andoria (2169-75) to Federation Councilman (2175-83) to Federation President (2184-92) to retirement (2192-2245); married an Ikaaran captain and has great grandchildren living 120 years later; grows close to T’Pol; greatly respected among the crew and Starfleet; Federation founding speech taught in grammar school. Medals earned include the Medal of Valor, with clusters; the Star Cross; Preantares Ribbon of Commendation; and the Federation Citation of Honor. Considered to be the greatest explorer of the 22nd century by John Gill.

• T’Pol becomes captain prior to 2165, married to Trip and has Lorian; pioneers the T’Pol maneuver; grows close to Archer by 2165.

• Trip should be a captain by 2165; married to T’Pol and has Lorian (what if the Kurtzman era renames their child Lori Anne?).

• Reed is a commander serving under Captain Ramirez on the Intrepid by 2165; scheduled to take over and become captain; planned to stick with Archer; remains a bachelor until death (maybe a leftover of the original intentions of Reed being gay?).

• Hoshi retires from Starfleet with the rank of lieutenant commander by 2165; post-2165, creates the linguacode translation matrix that is still used in the era of Pike and Kirk; married to Takashi Kimura and has two children, Toru and Yoshiko; retires on Tarsus IV colony and may have known a young James Kirk, Commander Phillipa Georgiou, Lieutenant Commander Lorca and the actual John Harrison before her death at the hands of Adrian Kodos; Enterprise was her only major assignment and returned to Brazil after decommission.

• Mayweather possibly served under Captain Stilbo; may or may not have stuck around Archer; married a MACO; died at the helm, or at least on the bridge prior to 2165.

• Phlox returned to Denobula and never gained a Starfleet commission; married a MACO and had children with her, tracked by a Yridian spy working for the Xindi, still Archer’s personal physician as of 2165, still has his Rigelian parrot.

• Shran became a General in the Imperial Guard by 2165; married Jhamel and father to Talla by 2161.

• 18 worlds showed interest in joining the Federation by 2161; not clear if they are colonies from the founding members or actually different species.

• Captain Hernandez’s fate is unknown, but is presumably dead in the “Twilight” timeline as are all other Earth based characters (from Starfleet HQ like Commander Williams to United Earth politicians like Nathan Samuels to civilians like Ruby, the Ericksons, and Archer’s & Trip’s exes to news reporters like Gannet Brooks to prisoners like Arik Soong to Terra Prime like John Frederick Paxton to family members of the NX-01 like with Reed, Trip and Hoshi), and Columbia is destroyed while under construction; presumably all Earth based characters seen during ENT died during the Earth-Romulan War, aside from Admiral Forrest, who died in an attack on the United Earth Embassy on Vulcan. And the researchers on Yosemite 3, when Dolim’s ship destroyed the outpost.

• Soval presumably returned to Vulcan; was never heard from again.

• ECS Horizon crew and the ECS Fortunate crew are never mentioned again; fate of both freighter vessels unknown.

• Starfleet ship have shields, tractor beams and go to warp 7 by 2165.

• Antidote to the pollen on Archer IV created by the early 2200s; who created it is unknown (Crewman Cutler?).

• Fate of Mars, Jupitar Station, Alpha Centauri, Vega, Deneva, Cold Station 12, and various sleeper ships are unknown in the “Twilight” timeline, but were certainly targeted by the Xindi – as only less than 6000 humans were remaining from their extermination campaign - and may have been targets during the Romulan War. Nomad might have been targeted by the Xindi too in the “Twilight” timeline, preventing the extinct of the Malurians by the 23rd century; unknown if the Romulans ever attempted to destroy Nomad during the war.

• In the “Twilight” timeline, the Vulcan High Command still exists and retains influences over Coridan, Agaron, & Mazar and respectful terms with the Klingons. V’Las possibly wiped out the Syrranites (including T’Pau), preventing the discovery of KirShara and allowing the discrimination towards those with Pa’nar Syndrome to continue, while the Andorians are allied with humans and are still in conflict with Vulcan. Presumably, there’s no Augment virus for the Klingons to deal with in the “Twilight” timeline, or any need for the Orions to go after Archer or Romulans to wage war with Earth. Romulans might still kidnap Aenar though and target various freighters. No first contact with the Organians either, or run ins with the Kziniti, visits to Stratos or United Earth starbases built. Rajiin’s fate remains unknown, Skagarans never get to Earth, and the Illyrian ship possibly never gets attacked by Enterprise.

• No mention of what happened to Captains Jennings and Duval.

• I have no idea how the “Twilight” timeline would affect the events of IAMD, since it involves crossing over to the prime timeline? Do the prime universe Xindi from the 23rd century invade the mirror universe and attack the Terran Empire? Or does the ISS Enterprise just not crossover into that timeline.

And even if all of he above was disregarded, the late 2160s of the prime timeline is when the Prime Directive gets established and Starfleet starts using the lasers seen in The Cage. So, no more phase pistols and phase cannons, but pre-Kirk cowboy diplomacy is still in effect. A more traditional Trek show, including not having to worry about canon and continuity much.

I see lots of stories to be told in a limited run sequel series that would be of relevance to a post pandemic era, like how ENT was relevant to the crises of the Bush era. But they will probably be told when pigs fly.

 

[FederationHistorian]

That same TOS episode had cloaking devices an amazing new concept, as well ship-to-ship visual communication not existing yet and the prevailing weaponry of the day being atomic bombs. Enterprise (as well as The Beginning script) and Discovery well and truly ignored that, introducing cloaking devices a century before. I don't think they'd have fretted any more about the 2259 date.

Maybe what the Romulan came up with in “Balance of Terror” was an amazing new concept. Were the Xyrillian & Suliban cloaks from ENT, or the Sarcophagus cloak from Discovery ever considered impressive by anyone at all? The Klingon might have even reverse engineered the Xyrillian and Suliban cloaks to make the cloaks seen in Discovery. But was still inferior to what the Romulans had, so they abandoned that cloak for the Romulan cloak in a technological exchange.

In addition, if the /X-01's quantum beacon was installed at every human/coalition outpost as a defensive measure, it serves no tactical advantage for the Romulans to use cloaks anymore since they’ll be discovered and can’t launch anymore surprise attacks with them. They’d have to use the holographic emitters from their drone ships instead, or no cloaks at all.

Communication wasn’t ignored in “Minefield”; communication was only done by subspace radio in the episode. And with Reed and Trip being on the drone ship where no Romulans were physically present, one of them is associated with Section 31 after all. Clearly that event was covered up or considered classified. Plus, the Romulans had spies on Vulcan and were abducting Aenar; they knew what humans and Andorians looked like. It’s the founding members of the Federation that don’t know what the Romulans look like, aside of Vulcans like V'Las.

And they did not ignore atomic weapons either; Enterprise still had spatial torpedoes onboard despite having photonic torpedoes; and the Romulans had to get their atomic weapons from somewhere. And the video game Star Trek: Legacy has Vulcan sensor platforms powered by nuclear fusion; clearly they were used as a weapons during the conflict as well.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Maybe what the Romulan came up with in “Balance of Terror” was an amazing new concept. Were the Xyrillian & Suliban cloaks from ENT, or the Sarcophagus cloak from Discovery ever considered impressive by anyone at all?

It was that cloaking had been achieved at all that was amazing to Spock. Not that a new cloak among several had been discovered.

KIRK: I don't see anything. I can't understand it.

SPOCK: Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain, with selective bending of light. But the power cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem.

Had cloaks been in use 100 years before and 10 years before, and were known to everyone, that conversation would have been very different.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I don't mind new series contradicting old episodes sometimes, it can't really be helped, but it'd be nice if they could at least avoid contradicting the really good ones!

 

[FederationHistorian]

It was that cloaking had been achieved at all that was amazing to Spock. Not that a new cloak among several had been discovered.

KIRK: I don't see anything. I can't understand it.

SPOCK: Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain, with selective bending of light. But the power cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem.

Had cloaks been in use 100 years before and 10 years before, and were known to everyone, that conversation would have been very different.

Its not like the Xyrillian ship, Suliban cell ships or Romulan mines were large to begin with; they would only require a small or even tiny cloaking generator. Something like a Romulan Bird of Prey though, that would require a larger cloaking generator to address the larger power cost. Kind of like how you wouldn’t expect a AAA battery to power a car when car batteries exist. Or a double AA battery to power an entire city, and you would use nuclear plants and hydroelectric dams instead to accomplish that task.

Let’s also not forget that the cloaks of the Xyrillian ship, Suliban cell ships and Romulan mines could be penetrated by both United Earth Starfleet and the Klingons in the 22nd century, while the Romulan Bird of Prey could not be by the Federation in the 23rd century. Meaning it’s a phase resonance that the Federation and the Klingons do not recognize and the Romulans achieved 100% invisibility.

Enterprise did nothing wrong here and did not contradict Spock's words.

 

[Dukhat]

Well, yes it did. How the cloaking was achieved is irrelevant. Kirk is clearly startled that a ship could be invisible. Period.

 

[fireproof78]

It was that cloaking had been achieved at all that was amazing to Spock. Not that a new cloak among several had been discovered.

KIRK: I don't see anything. I can't understand it.

SPOCK: Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain, with selective bending of light. But the power cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem.

Had cloaks been in use 100 years before and 10 years before, and were known to everyone, that conversation would have been very different.

Yup. Not a lot of wiggle room with those pronouncements.

 

[dupersuper]

Considered to be the greatest explorer of the 22nd century by John Gill.

A dubious honour, considering the one on screen example we have of John Gill's judgement...

 

[FederationHistorian]

Well, yes it did. How the cloaking was achieved is irrelevant. Kirk is clearly startled that a ship could be invisible. Period.

Its like the spore drive seen in Discovery. Are we supposed to believe that with all the various spacefaring species out there, including civilizations that once existed hundreds of thousand of years ago, that no one else came up with the concept and was successful with it in some form?

At least Enterprise actually respects your intelligence and acknowledges that clocking tech itself isn’t new. But its used on tiny vessels and mines. It wasn’t like we ever saw a BoP use it again in ENT beyond that one episode either.

And had Kirk even seen a cloaked vessel in real life prior to this event?

A dubious honour, considering the one on screen example we have of John Gill's judgement...

But its okay, since they name planets, starships and ship classes after Archer. Unless they were retroactively renamed in the 24th century for Henry Archer. Or even Sally Archer.

 

[dupersuper]

And had Kirk even seen a cloaked vessel in real life prior to this event?

I mean, has any one?

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I mean, has any one?

Only cats and butterflies can see them when they're cloaked.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Its like the spore drive seen in Discovery. Are we supposed to believe that with all the various spacefaring species out there, including civilizations that once existed hundreds of thousand of years ago, that no one else came up with the concept and was successful with it in some form?

Maybe species we haven't met use it regularly use it as easily as Discovery, or the space tardigrades do. Going by the last aired episode of Discovery, Starfleet in the 32nd century have cracked and miniaturised the technology and the only issue is compatible pilots.

At least Enterprise actually respects your intelligence and acknowledges that clocking tech itself isn’t new. But its used on tiny vessels and mines. It wasn’t like we ever saw a BoP use it again in ENT beyond that one episode either.

On no planet does ENT "respect your intelligence" by it's treatment of cloaking devices. It's a clear and blatant retcon. In "Balance of Terror", it was a concept likely new to viewers and they explained it by having it new to the characters as well.

Not that there's anything wrong with a retcon, it just is what it is. And going back to my original point, if they were happy to do that they'd definitely have been happy to move the Romulan war's beginning to 2159, as per the STTB script.

And had Kirk even seen a cloaked vessel in real life prior to this event?

Spock had seen a cloaked Klingon cleave ship do it's thing, and may well see more in Strange New Worlds. And of course Kirk would be a cadet or already serving in Starfleet during the Klingon war. And if Romulan First Contact is something they teach at Starfleet Academy, the concept of invisible ships would not be new to him.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Maybe species we haven't met use it regularly use it as easily as Discovery, or the space tardigrades do. Going by the last aired episode of Discovery, Starfleet in the 32nd century have cracked and miniaturised the technology and the only issue is compatible pilots.

Well, we know that the Dominion never had it. And the Borg never assimilated anyone with that technology (and they assimilated Picard, who melded with Sarek, who adopted Burnham, so they knew about the spore drive). And the various species encountered in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants in ENT/TOS/TNG/DS9 never had it. Iconians had gateways, but that’s not a spore drive. The T’Kon Empire must not have had a spore drive either prior to extinction either.

Would like to know what species had a spore drive.

On no planet does ENT "respect your intelligence" by it's treatment of cloaking devices. It's a clear and blatant retcon. In "Balance of Terror", it was a concept likely new to viewers and they explained it by having it new to the characters as well.

Not that there's anything wrong with a retcon, it just is what it is. And going back to my original point, if they were happy to do that they'd definitely have been happy to move the Romulan war's beginning to 2159, as per the STTB script.

The terminology used for the Romulan cloak in TOS was invisibility screen.

And even in “The Communicator”, Archer uses the term invisible aircraft when pointing out that they made General Gosis believed that his enemies were more advanced that they were.

Surely its understandable as to why the Romulans would want to project that they are more advanced than they are to potential enemies.

Enterprise did nothing wrong here.

Spock had seen a cloaked Klingon cleave ship do it's thing, and may well see more in Strange New Worlds. And of course Kirk would be a cadet or already serving in Starfleet during the Klingon war. And if Romulan First Contact is something they teach at Starfleet Academy, the concept of invisible ships would not be new to him.

I’m also sure that they teach Romulan Second Contact, where the Romulans did not use cloaks at all and used holoemitters to camouflage their ships. Pretty sure it could be used to blend into the surroundings of empty space.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The terminology used for the Romulan cloak in TOS was invisibility screen.

And even in “The Communicator”, Archer uses the term invisible aircraft when pointing out that they made General Gosis believed that his enemies were more advanced that they were.

Surely its understandable as to why the Romulans would want to project that they are more advanced than they are to potential enemies.

Invisibility screen was used in Discovery.

Enterprise did nothing wrong here.

Hey I love Trek but... no.

 

[Dukhat]

Enterprise did nothing wrong here.

Enterprise showed Romulan warbirds with Jem'Hadar fighter nacelles cloaking 100 years before Balance of Terror, where the cloak was a new thing. And Archer et. al knew all about ships having cloaking ability thanks to the Suliban. Spock saw a Klingon cleave ship uncloak in DSC. So Kirk and Spock in TOS acting as though they've never heard of ships becoming invisible is a clear retcon. You can argue 'terminology' all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not consistent with what we see in TOS.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Invisibility screen was used in Discovery.

Hey I love Trek but... no.

Enterprise showed Romulan warbirds with Jem'Hadar fighter nacelles cloaking 100 years before Balance of Terror, where the cloak was a new thing. And Archer et. al knew all about ships having cloaking ability thanks to the Suliban. Spock saw a Klingon cleave ship uncloak in DSC. So Kirk and Spock in TOS acting as though they've never heard of ships becoming invisible is a clear retcon. You can argue 'terminology' all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not consistent with what we see in TOS.

Really, Enterprise did nothing wrong in this instance; the Suliban and Xyrillian cloaks were referred to as stealth technology, in “Broken Bow” and in “Unexpected” respectively. Not hard to figure out that the Romulan cloak was seen as such technology, Romulans initially used it as a flex to show off how advanced they were to potential enemies, and that they improved upon it to gain 100% invisibility a century later when Starfleet and its allies kept exposing its faults.

The only time it was referred to as cloaking was in “Shockwave”, which was written by B&B and featured temporal agent Daniels, who is from a future where cloaking is the terminology used far more than stealth tech or invisibility screen. Everyone else that wrote for ENT took care to not refer to cloaks as cloaks in the 22nd century, preferring stealth technology as the terminology instead. No reason that the ENT sequel series (in whatever form it takes) could not and would not continue that, and forget B&B’s breach with continuity. And bring it in line with cloaking being only theoretical as Spock said.

But do continue with your overt bias towards the tentpole series Discovery. Even though a limited ENT sequel series set in the 2170s would actually be of benefit to Discovery (particularly its controversial first season) and SNW (the launch of the NCC-1701), and could easily address the Romulan war in the process without ever having to significantly feature it, to keep the war weary viewers happy and be a reboot. Don’t have to worry about bringing back most of the guest cast from the ENT era if they all died during the Earth-Romulan War. And maybe Trip and T’Pol did get married at the start of the Romulan War on Risa, then divorced and T’Pol engaged in the Vulcan ritual fullara to forget it, and engaged in kolinhar after the Federation founding to purge her emotions.

Its not my responsibility to make ENT fit with the rest of Star Trek continuity. Its on those that write and produce the shows.

 

[Dukhat]

I have no bias. ENT and DSC have clearly retconned TOS. For some odd reason you're just using a lot of doublespeak and desperately trying to act as if this is not so, when it most certainly is. So there's nothing more I feel I need to discuss about the subject.

Its not my responsibility to make ENT fit with the rest of Star Trek continuity. Its on those that write and produce the shows.

The writers and producers aren't interested in making ENT or DSC fit in with continuity. That ship sailed long ago.

 

[dupersuper]

Well, we know that the Dominion never had it. And the Borg never assimilated anyone with that technology (and they assimilated Picard, who melded with Sarek, who adopted Burnham, so they knew about the spore drive).

Well, they likely know Sarek had a foster daughter who at one point served aboard a starship with an experimental engine. Sarek was a diplomat, not a scientist, so they know second hand (through a mind meld conducted when his mind had already started to falter) what he remembers of whatever he knew about the ship.

 

[Sci]

If there were to be an ENT revival of some sort, I don't see why they couldn't just set it 17 years later (2172) and just develop a new backstory to fill in what the characters have been up to in the meantime, to match with the flow of time in real life.

Cause 17 years later could also mean 2178, almost 2 decades after the formation of the Federation.

I mean, sure, but either way, there's still no reason they couldn't set it X number of years post-S4 in order to roughly match the real passage of time since ENT S4 was produced.