Would lazy people be frowned upon on 24th century earth in Star Trek?

[thewanderingjack]

I can't kind think of an instance where they ever speak of present day earth.

I can't think of one either (at least not in anything past vague reference to something being from Earth or that sort of thing), but I do think they mentioned the lack of money, prejudice, poverty, war, that sort of thing, and I was including the whole STU, and TNG and DS9 definitely make mention of it (DS9:The Maquis, pt 2: SISKO: On Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet headquarters and you see paradise. I was just watching that so that's why that one came right to mind, but I recall Picard saying the same kind of thing too, a few times iirc).

But in I don't see Kirk arbitrarily deciding the culture has stagnated and going in aiming to wreck it (not in The Apple nor other TOS episodes). I see him either being confronted by a danger posed to him/his crew/his ship (as in The Apple, the ship was being drained of energy etc), or by an aspect of that civilization that is in fact at odds with their portrayal of perfection (also in The Apple, as the populace were in fact slaves to Vaal, an "alien" machine). We could debate on how acceptable his judgement of other cultures based on human perspectives of "right and wrong" are, but I bet we agree that when it poses a danger to his crew/ship, there's a justification on his part for what he's doing. They always seemed to like/admire/appreciate apparent "perfection," until they discovered some "fatal" flaw (that endangered them).

Unicorns have the right to exist, that doesn't mean there are unicorns.

There are plenty of unicorns. Unicorns are imaginary. (Imaginary) Unicorns "exist" all over the place (Charlie the unicorn anyone? ;-)). No one said imaginary unicorns have a right to exist as real creatures. They most certainly do not... not unless we are going to do something about those horns of theirs ;-).

Lazy people on the other hand, are (arguably) a (minority) cultural group, and should be protected! SAVE THE BUMS!!! I mean, we're trying to save the whales and dolphins... and I hear dolphins at least spend most of their time playing (the assholes).

#LazyLivesMatter

Prior to "getting rid of" those people, you could simply label any people who you disagree with with those (or other) terms, this of course would make it easier to "getting rid of" them. Can't have people you disagree with having any say in societies decisions.
Maybe not.

Well let's define "getting rid of": If we as a society are (purportedly trying to) teaching our new generations to be progressively less bigoted, we are "getting rid of those people." Is that ok? I mean, that's just how society works. I am hardly advocating "lining them up against the wall and shooting them."

I've always had a weird thing about that whole concept: not allowing fascists or racists their opinions is fascist (and racist, if everyone else can have their opinions, many of which are racist too). Of course them running around lynching people isn't ok either... so where's the line?

 

[Tenacity]

I've always had a weird thing about that whole concept: not allowing fascists or racists their opinions is fascist

What we Americans refer to as "the slippery slope," once you say That group doesn't get freedom of speech, well who comes next?

It would be mighty easy to control the narrative and the direction of society if you could systematically silence anyone who opposed the direction you want society to head.

Objectible people and groups do exist within our greater society, but silencing them carries a danger.

Speak out against them, sure. In the end society (with it's hundreds of millions of voice) will make the ultimate decision as to which direction it will go.

No guarentee you'll approve of that decision

 

[Balok's Decoy]

You can't censor speech through the arm of the State. That is kind of the definition of fascism. But you can try to foster an educational, cultural, and social environment that makes racist/fascist/sexist/any ism that denies people their humanity, as marginalized and rightfully abhorred as possible, such that those ideas exist only on the fringes of society if they exist at all.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Laziness is a trait that should always be frowned upon in any generation. You don't get to be the best by sitting around, just fantasizing about it. Of what use is a dream, but as a blueprint ... for action???

 

[Tenacity]

But you can try to foster an educational, cultural, and social environment that makes racist/fascist/sexist/any ism

Great as long as you're not using those platforms to push a social or political concept that only a portion of the population/society actually agrees with.

Advocacy is fine, but demonization of opposing point of views so that only one voice is heard ... it just isn't my view of democracy.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

Great as long as you're not using those platforms to push a social or political concept that only a portion of the population/society actually agrees with.

Advocacy is fine, but demonization of opposing point of views so that only one voice is heard ... it just isn't my view of democracy.

I absolutely think that schools, universities, public institutions, etc and so forth should promote inclusion and openly and actively reject and oppose racism, sexism, and assorted forms of bigotry. If that makes racists and bigots uncomfortable, well, good, they should feel uncomfortable.

Racism and sexism and bigotry SHOULD be demonized. Just because a person has free speech doesn't mean their invective and hatred can be spread without opposition or critique. And anyone who does less than oppose it is helping support it. Apathy helps the oppressor.

 

[Tallguy]

I can't think of one either (at least not in anything past vague reference to something being from Earth or that sort of thing), but I do think they mentioned the lack of money, prejudice, poverty, war, that sort of thing...

TOS reference please?

You look out the window of Starfleet headquarters and you see paradise.

I thought you see an airport. That's what it was in The Voyage Home.

Sure I'm being snarky, but The Great Bird had the notion that as much as we could get would be underground and the surface of the Earth would be mostly parkland - per the TMP novel and I believe a lot of the background work that was done for the pilot movie of Phase II. Kind of like what we saw in The Cage. (The only time we saw Earth in TOS, right?)

 

[Kor]

In TOS, earth isn't a paradise. They only ever go there through time travel, and I can't kind think of an instance where they ever speak of present day earth. ...

"The Cage," and, by extension, "The Menagerie."

Kor

 

[Nightdiamond]

All this hinges on all people thinking the same way, doing the same thing. As if everyone on planet earth is willfully employed working to keep busy and better humanity. There aren't some people out there free loading? I think it's a little over-idealized.


Otoh, I can see the logic to the idea. You can't impress other people with a show of possessions because thanks to the replicator, everyone else has the same access to those things. So in this type of society, if you just lounge around and feed off the replicator, other humans will probably think less of you. You can no longer impress a date by just ordering an "expensive" dinner, because on earth, there is probably no such thing anymore.

You have to impress people or your date with your character, personality and skills. That's one good thing about Trek's idea of the future.

What we Americans refer to as "the slippery slope," once you say That group doesn't get freedom of speech, well who comes next?

It would be mighty easy to control the narrative and the direction of society if you could systematically silence anyone who opposed the direction you want society to head.

Objectible people and groups do exist within our greater society, but silencing them carries a danger.

Speak out against them, sure. In the end society (with it's hundreds of millions of voice) will make the ultimate decision as to which direction it will go.

No guarentee you'll approve of that decision

I absolutely think that schools, universities, public institutions, etc and so forth should promote inclusion and openly and actively reject and oppose racism, sexism, and assorted forms of bigotry. If that makes racists and bigots uncomfortable, well, good, they should feel uncomfortable.

Racism and sexism and bigotry SHOULD be demonized. Just because a person has free speech doesn't mean their invective and hatred can be spread without opposition or critique. And anyone who does less than oppose it is helping support it. Apathy helps the oppressor.

Idk, we have to be careful of the slippery slope, but obviously the world would be a better place without facists/racists/bigots/sexist etc.

The main reason Trekbbs hasn't slid into a gutter of trolls and hateful comments is because of their strong no tolerance policy and alert moderators. And because the majority of the posters are decent people.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

The main reason Trekbbs hasn't slid into a gutter of trolls and hateful comments is because of their strong no tolerance policy and alert moderators. And because the majority of the posters are decent people.

Exactly. TrekBBS has decided to institute policies that keep hate speech off the board. That isn't true censorship. True censorship would be the US Government telling ISPs and websites that they couldn't have hate speech on their boards. Individual sites, boards, etc making that call is their own prerogative and I think it's made TrekBBS a truly pleasant place to be, unlike the vast majority of the internet.

 

[Nyotarules]

Hipsters ..

Anyway, we are assuming that the people living in a 24th century Trek-style Utopia will still be like us (lazy greedy sociopaths and general all-around assholes, if you disagree just watch any cable news channel for a few minutes), but we will never get there unless all people change for the better. 21st century mindsets are not compatible with a 24th century Utopia.

If Earth is a 24th century Utopia some humans still find it boring enough to leave and live a more challenging life. E.g Vash, the colonists in the DMZ and the human who joined the Orion mafia. Cultural values change but humans are still humans. (E.G Western Society finds the idea of kidnapping people and selling them like cattle abhorrent, 300 years ago it was normal as bear baiting).
Humanity in the Star Trek universe might not treat each other like dirt anymore, but my guess is racism and prejudices are just diverted from brown people to green and blue people. I bet Terra Prime is still in existence, fighting against the inevitable, campaigning for a Terraexist from The Federation.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

If Earth is a 24th century Utopia some humans still find it boring enough to leave and live a more challenging life. E.g Vash, the colonists in the DMZ and the human who joined the Orion mafia. Cultural values change but humans are still humans.
Humanity in the Star Trek universe might not treat each other like dirt anymore, but my guess is racism and prejudices are just diverted from brown people to green and blue people. I beg Terra Prime is still in existence, fighting against the inevitable, campaigning for a Terraexist from The Federation.

I would love to see a whole season of Star Trek address a xenophobic speciesist group that wants Earth to leave the Federation and isolate itself from its allies in the Alpha Quadrant.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ That would be too much like the Terra Prime arc from ENT. Granted, there was no Federation yet then, but the general thrust of the gist is still the same.

 

[Tallguy]

E.G Western Society finds the idea of kidnapping people and selling them like cattle abhorrent, 300 years ago it was normal as bear baiting.

Still distressingly normal elsewhere.

 

[thewanderingjack]

Still distressingly normal elsewhere.

Elsewhere? If you meant other than western society, for example the U.S., sorry: There is no official estimate of the total number of human trafficking victims in the U.S. Polaris estimates that the total number of victims nationally reaches into the hundreds of thousands when estimates of both adults and minors and sex trafficking and labor trafficking are aggregated.

 

[Tenacity]

Still distressingly normal elsewhere.

World Economic Forum and Global slavery index both puts the world figure at 45.8 million, over half are in 5 countries.

There are more slaves today that at any previous time in Human history.

 

[dswynne1]

Here's the thing. There is already talks on how an economy will work when (not if) society is completely automatic, including a number of white collar professions. In effect, business will have to be taxed in order give people a sustainable income, since there will barely be any jobs left for people to do.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Maybe lazy people are quietly rounded up and fed into the replicators as raw material.

 

[at Quark's]

Maybe lazy people are quietly rounded up and fed into the replicators as raw material.

And then tell their hardworking Starfleet relatives they've perished in a fire or some such thing <shudder>....

 

[Timo]

Approaching this from the other end, what possible use could the UFP society have for the labor of its citizens? Wouldn't that be more an expense than an asset?

A certain amount of innovation might come from working hard. But for all we know (since we have never had the opportunity to test this), idleness is the greatest contributor to innovation, and the "90% perspiration" thing can and should be eliminated, thereby boosting the innovation process by 90%...

As for jobs that need people, getting one volunteer to study surgery for the benefit of 100,000 future patients ought to be a breeze. Or getting two, one of whom gives it up and becomes a bartender instead. It's not even just a matter of increasing automation, it's a matter of increasing access to specialists across not just global but interplanetary distances as well.

Timo Saloniemi