Would lazy people be frowned upon on 24th century earth in Star Trek?
- Thread starter The Rock
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It seems like the only ones to have a problem with this are the ones that are themselves too "lazy" to do anything useful to anyone else and are expecting the rest of society to be the same.
I don't think you can find a society in which "social productivity" (doing something that in some way benefits other people) is not programmed into people.
If I invented some thing and were rich enough today I could do this right, and no one could say I have any "need" to work. I could plan it out to cover my life expenses and be set. But dates would suck (except with gold diggers) as soon as they ask me what I do with my life ("meh, sit around, hand down my pants, etc etc). I would quite likely become a "boring" person to pretty much everyone.
Hell, I'd get bored... I'd want to make a game, or a comic, or something... and since I had the time and resources, and wouldn't have to worry about food and shelter at the same time, I would do it. Some people would like it (it is hard to find anything that NOBODY likes) and there is my (albeit small) contribution to society.
I think (both in STU and theoretically in future reality) we are also ignoring that there are "jobs" that need doing... less of them, but still some... someone has to work mining equipment and etc etc. But as with today, some people like to do those jobs too... people want to be train conductors and other things, either for fun or want to serve the public, or understand the need for that in order for the benefits. And with less of that too, I bet more people would be willing to do some of those jobs a bit, while having most of the time to pursue their own interests.
I find it funny (and I am not saying anyone here fits this, just comes to mind) most people who oppose this (as it applies to Socialism for example) are fine with it in the Bible: Eden was a perfect place where no one (Adam and Eve, and if they hadn't been kicked out everyone I assume) had to work. It was all "pick the fruit and oh the animals come to you (already cooked even maybe? They didn't get into details IIRC). Heaven would be too. No work, just bliss.
In-universe, we know that can't always be the case, many restaurants appear to serve replicated food. But there you go for an example of reason's people "work" Joseph loves to cook for lots of people, people love to eat "real" home cooking. No money needs to be involved if everyone already is getting their (life) needs met outside of this exchange. But they are both (restaurateur and customers) serving each others' needs. So there's more motivations than money or resources to "work."
Some people like to "sell" (to show people things they may not have seen before, share it with them, to encourage them to own them) , others like to "shop"... people like to socialize in different settings (striking up conversations at music "stores", comic "shops" etc).
Utopia, an idealized (where ideal itself is defined as unrealistically aim for perfection) imaginary place, akin to the island described in Sir Thomas More's Utopia.
Eutopia, A place of ideal well-being, as a practical aspiration.
(Just a personal quest to spread that)
I don't think you can find a society in which "social productivity" (doing something that in some way benefits other people) is not programmed into people.
If I invented some thing and were rich enough today I could do this right, and no one could say I have any "need" to work. I could plan it out to cover my life expenses and be set. But dates would suck (except with gold diggers) as soon as they ask me what I do with my life ("meh, sit around, hand down my pants, etc etc). I would quite likely become a "boring" person to pretty much everyone.
Hell, I'd get bored... I'd want to make a game, or a comic, or something... and since I had the time and resources, and wouldn't have to worry about food and shelter at the same time, I would do it. Some people would like it (it is hard to find anything that NOBODY likes) and there is my (albeit small) contribution to society.
I think (both in STU and theoretically in future reality) we are also ignoring that there are "jobs" that need doing... less of them, but still some... someone has to work mining equipment and etc etc. But as with today, some people like to do those jobs too... people want to be train conductors and other things, either for fun or want to serve the public, or understand the need for that in order for the benefits. And with less of that too, I bet more people would be willing to do some of those jobs a bit, while having most of the time to pursue their own interests.
I find it funny (and I am not saying anyone here fits this, just comes to mind) most people who oppose this (as it applies to Socialism for example) are fine with it in the Bible: Eden was a perfect place where no one (Adam and Eve, and if they hadn't been kicked out everyone I assume) had to work. It was all "pick the fruit and oh the animals come to you (already cooked even maybe? They didn't get into details IIRC). Heaven would be too. No work, just bliss.
In-universe, we know that can't always be the case, many restaurants appear to serve replicated food. But there you go for an example of reason's people "work" Joseph loves to cook for lots of people, people love to eat "real" home cooking. No money needs to be involved if everyone already is getting their (life) needs met outside of this exchange. But they are both (restaurateur and customers) serving each others' needs. So there's more motivations than money or resources to "work."
Some people like to "sell" (to show people things they may not have seen before, share it with them, to encourage them to own them) , others like to "shop"... people like to socialize in different settings (striking up conversations at music "stores", comic "shops" etc).
Utopia, an idealized (where ideal itself is defined as unrealistically aim for perfection) imaginary place, akin to the island described in Sir Thomas More's Utopia.
Eutopia, A place of ideal well-being, as a practical aspiration.
(Just a personal quest to spread that)
I've never had to look into the matter, but from what I've been told, mostly through people like the aforementioned person and others who have dealt with similar people, if you're not handicapped you need to have worked a certain amount of hours to be eligible for welfare, and if you haven't worked that much, you're shit out of luck. Thus you have really lazy people who actually do quit their jobs the minute they have the minimum hours necessary to apply for welfare.
#LazyLivesMatter
Roddenberry was pretty anti "Eden." There were many episodes where Kirk found a paradise planet where everyone lived in harmony. Kirk then destroys their god, gives them mortality, sex, sweat and toil.
Where is that? I think, at least in most states, in the U.S. you only have to prove need, certainly for federal aid/things like "food stamps."
Wherever it is, they would have had to take it to the next logical step, to be effective: you get back what you pay in, so there is a limit on how long you're on it (I believe unemployment works this way).
In the U.S. you can get food assistance ("food stamps") and health insurance (Medic-Aid) (tentatively, since you get it, but the majority of Dr's don't accept it as insurance because it pays them "too little") by proving need. You can get a limited cash assistance (I forget the amount or for how long) also if you prove need, but it IS limited, both in amount and for how long, there's also IIRC a lifetime cap on that. I don't know if there is direct assistance for rent/utilities or how they work ("Section 8 housing" comes to mind, I think there's vouchers?). I know there's programs to reduce what you pay (specific housing options, discounts from utility providers).
Hmmm I'd argue that's not the case, since Earth is an Eden and every case I can recall in TOS there's something pretty "wrong" with the society, which is what in fact he rebels against. Though I guess as "eutopia for those people," you do make a very good point. I'm not restricting my thoughts to STU or Gene's vision, more in general. It's hard not to see the parallels between some of what he depicted and things like socialism and social justice, so I do go back and forth. :-)
Hipsters ..
Anyway, we are assuming that the people living in a 24th century Trek-style Utopia will still be like us (lazy greedy sociopaths and general all-around assholes, if you disagree just watch any cable news channel for a few minutes), but we will never get there unless all people change for the better. 21st century mindsets are not compatible with a 24th century Utopia.
Human nature doesn't change.
And a perfect society is death to imperfect beings, so I wouldn't want that kind of Utopia anyway.
Oh, I doubt we'll ever get there, unless some real-life version of the Vulcans show up someday soon with a gift basket full of planet-saving tech for us.
Canada
You're making a lot if assumptions (or seem to be) about what "human nature" is/encompasses. That seems like a discussion in itself.
What about a society perfect for imperfect people? :-D. Any culture, in becoming dominant, is by definition destructive to other cultures in the same group. I suppose we are talking about getting rid of (in this case) things like racist, sexist bigots... most people are ok with that. There's not necessarily an inherent compulsion to "be perfect" though.. in STU people aren't perfect, but Earth is idealized in many ways... but I'd argue there's more apparent personal freedom still than there is in the U.S. today (for example).
Interesting... And there's no limit (time wise) to getting aid? I'd think if they thought to have the first part, the second is just "natural." And this aid is some kind of "check" to pay for any all needs?
Like I said, in the U.S. there's no "minimum work hours" before you get aid, but it is restrictive in how that aid comes, and how much (a single person gets less than $200US a month for food, which where I live, might get you through 1/2 a month if you budget really REALLY well (and buy cheap stuff))... added to which many states have rules that require people to volunteer with non-profits to receive that assistance.
Here the big problem (for people not trying to intentionally game the system) is that you can have a hard time finding enough work/pay to make ends meet, while every dollar you earn is held against your aid (meaning you get less)... often leaving a big gap that's untenable. Of course that's what people gaming the system say use as an excuse as well.
Have you checked out the new experiments in "universal basic income" being done right now? Random article on it: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-europe-set-to-pilot-universal-basic-incomes
Human nature is inherently selfish. Always has been, always will be.
Of course, there are those who willfully and selflessly rise above this, and they should be commended. But that's relatively rare.
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But if there's an exception, it's hardly "human nature"... more to the point, is "selfishness" (to a destructive point) really human nature? Why do parents feed their kids before themselves (when extreme poverty and lack of resources is an issue)?. Why does anyone ever hep other people over themselves?
Obviously we all have some level of self-interest... helping others until you yourself are in dire need is not reasonable/tenable, but maybe the level to which we are "selfish" is in fact learned, not natural.
You can't have access to those things unless you have some sort of disability, or you have children.
In TOS, earth isn't a paradise. They only ever go there through time travel, and I can't kind think of an instance where they ever speak of present day earth. Likewise in early TNG, they express displeasure at having to return to earth.
TOS presents a philosophy that humanity must struggle to move forward, and face adversity to advance. The best example of Kirk destroying Eden is of course, "The Apple." but he does it many times. Whenever he sees a culture that has "stagnated" no matter how perfect, peaceful, and content the inhabitants are, he presents it as a problem. He does this even when the inhabitants are immortal.
It's a sort of Gnostic philosophy, or Kabbalistic perhaps.
I think the Utopian deal is a trap, to encourage lazy people. A way to keep untrained humans from venturing out and causing trouble amongst the other races. Why leave Earth if you have everything you need when you want it..
The adventurous/non lazy will become Star Fleet, the greedy your Harry Mudds, Cyrano Jones and Vashes. Sorry 24th century economics is another topic..
The adventurous/non lazy will become Star Fleet, the greedy your Harry Mudds, Cyrano Jones and Vashes. Sorry 24th century economics is another topic..
But you said lazy people have the right to exist which indicates Lazy people exist
^ You just blew my mind.
Prior to "getting rid of" those people, you could simply label any people who you disagree with with those (or other) terms, this of course would make it easier to "getting rid of" them. Can't have people you disagree with having any say in societies decisions.
Maybe not.
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