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Would a series of Star Trek soldier/pilot novels work?

How many times, when a new species asks about all those weapons a given ship sports is that species told variations of, "We are explorers. Our weapons are purely for our own protection."

You have two choices with a statement like this, made repeatedly. Either it is true or it is false. If it is true, SF is not a military org.

Or it is a military organization that also undertakes missions of defense and genuinely does not wish to ever use its weapons for any purpose other than self-protection.

Etymology- military
1460, from M.Fr. militaire, from L. militaris "of soldiers or war," from miles (gen. militis) "soldier," perhaps ult. from Etruscan, or else meaning "one who marches in a troop," and thus connected to Skt. melah "assembly," Gk. homilos "assembled crowd, throng." The noun sense of "soldiers generally" is attested from 1757.

So, yes, the shifting central ethos is germane and is NOT limited to how the organization interacts with the government or its hierarchical structure or the weapons it has.

First off, what dictionary is that from?

Secondly, so what? You just described the etymology, not the current definition, not the things that legally define a military. This is a question of legalities, not a question of etymology.

We must defer to its definition of itself and, if there are inconsistencies, not figure ways to make Picard's statement false but rather shore up why it is true in spite of those inconsistencies.

Or maybe we just ignore a line that is completely inconsistent with all the on-screen evidence? Just like how we ignore references to the Klingon Empire becoming a Federation Member State from "Samaritan Snare" or the idea that transwarp will turn you into a highly evolved newt or that there's an alternate universe made of anti-matter? Or, really, everything from "Spock's Brain?"
 
I feel the Paramilitary def is the best fit for Starfleet.

Some participants are applying a functional definition of military (Starfleet does these things that a military organization does and a nonmilitary organization does not, therefore Starfleet is military). You're using an ideological definition of military based on your apparent aversion to the very concept (military bad, Starfleet good, therefore Starfleet not military). Not exactly convincing to anyone who lives outside your head.

We must defer to its definition of itself and, if there are inconsistencies, not figure ways to make Picard's statement false but rather shore up why it is true in spite of those inconsistencies.

Again, your privileging of Picard's statement over everyone else's, from Kirk on down, is based on an ideological response.

James T. Kirk said it a long, long time ago: "We're a combined service." Or, as David Mack put it, military-plus. It's military, Geoff, but not as we know it.
 
I just thought I'd see what I could find about official opions on whether or not Starfleet is military and I stumbled across this:
Ronald D. Moore commented: "I've always felt that Starfleet is the military/exploratory/scientific arm of the UFP."
I also find this:
Remarking on a Starfleet JAG getting involved with a civilian case with Richard Bashir, Moore said: "Starfleet is more than just a military entity and seems to have police and/or judicial functions.
So even some of the people who work on the shows felt that SF was (partially) military.
 
I feel the Paramilitary def is the best fit for Starfleet.

Some participants are applying a functional definition of military (Starfleet does these things that a military organization does and a nonmilitary organization does not, therefore Starfleet is military). You're using an ideological definition of military based on your apparent aversion to the very concept (military bad, Starfleet good, therefore Starfleet not military). Not exactly convincing to anyone who lives outside your head.

We must defer to its definition of itself and, if there are inconsistencies, not figure ways to make Picard's statement false but rather shore up why it is true in spite of those inconsistencies.

Again, your privileging of Picard's statement over everyone else's, from Kirk on down, is based on an ideological response.

James T. Kirk said it a long, long time ago: "We're a combined service." Or, as David Mack put it, military-plus. It's military, Geoff, but not as we know it.

If it's "not as we know it" how is it possible to apply current definitions to a model with which we aren't actually familiar? The more reasonable assessment must be that, while there are aspects we find familiar, there are many more inconsistences that cannot be explained under current models.

Since this is a society set in the future, we must assume that multiple changes of which we are unaware have taken place to account for those inconsistencies. IF a member in high and good standing in an organization created by that society, Picard in this case, says something that contradicts modern models of military, we must find a way to understand his meaning rather than impose our own. This show is called star TREK not star Warriors. The thesis statement is the biggest clue but not the only.

And I don't place Picard over Kirk. They are men of different times, operating in an evolving organization which is itself part of an evolving society. As I've repeatedly pointed out, in its initial couple of iterations the military description of Starfleet is workable but, as we move forward in time, it becomes less and less so. This is a continuum.

When Picard says Starfleet IS X he is not saying it WAS X. The TNG Starfleet is not the TOS Starfleet and neither is the Starfleet of ENT.

This is not a static situation/organization/society meaning that, depending on the era under discussion, both views are true. But one size simply does not fit all in this instance. Nor should it.

I wouldn't be capable of writing or even conceiving a MACO story if I had the antipathy for all things military that some have claimed. I just don't understand Star Trek as you do. The evolutionary timeline I've presented is just as supportable by existing facts as your position is. I choose mine because it feels right and logical to me, not because I hate soldiers or the military.
 
James T. Kirk said it a long, long time ago: "We're a combined service." Or, as David Mack put it, military-plus. It's military, Geoff, but not as we know it.

If it's "not as we know it" how is it possible to apply current definitions to a model with which we aren't actually familiar?

By observing the television program and figuring out from what they say what Starfleet's legal capacities are. If it matches those of a military, then Starfleet is a military, even if it doesn't behave like all of the militaries with which we are familiar. Similarly, we can determine that, say, Spock, is a sentient being, in spite of his being a sentient being not as we know them, by watching the show and determining whether or not he meets the criteria for a sentient being. He does -- he's just not the kind of sentient being (100% human) with which we are most familiar.

The more reasonable assessment must be that, while there are aspects we find familiar, there are many more inconsistences that cannot be explained under current models.

I would point out again and again that nothing Starfleet has ever done is without precedent in real-life militaries. Ergo, nothing is inconsistent with current models.

IF a member in high and good standing in an organization created by that society, Picard in this case, says something that contradicts modern models of military, we must find a way to understand his meaning rather than impose our own.

Not if that line defies every single piece of evidence presented throughout the rest of the 700+ hours of canon. Or are you also going to try to find a way and justify a man who is very close to James T. Kirk creating for him a tombstone that misidentifies his middle initial as "R?" Are you going to decide that this is somehow evidence that Kirk has some unknown, unestablished second middle name with which we are unfamiliar? Or would you just ignore it?

This show is called star TREK not star Warriors. The thesis statement is the biggest clue but not the only.

No one is arguing that these people are warriors. Hell, I'm not even arguing that they're soldiers per se. ("Soldier" is a term these days reserved for members of the Army. Naval officers are referred to as "sailors," and Air Force officers are "airmen" or "airwomen.") I am, however, arguing that they are officers in a military organization that undertakes missions of exploration, defense, scientific research, and diplomacy -- and that none of these missions can logically be stated to be any more or less important in the long run than any of the others.

As I've repeatedly pointed out, in its initial couple of iterations the military description of Starfleet is workable but, as we move forward in time, it becomes less and less so.

Nothing about it is unworkable. And, if anything, your contention that Starfleet is a paramilitary organization is far more workable in ENT's timeframe, since there is no evidence that the United Earth Starfleet held courts martial, could administer martial law, or was regarded as being inherently legally responsible for defending United Earth. To say nothing of the fact that the United Earth Starfleet was referred to as not being part of the military in multiple episodes by multiple characters, with the MACOs explicitly established as being an entirely separate service that was military.

But one size simply does not fit all in this instance.

Um, yes, it does. If it

* has courts martial for internal breaches of discipline
* can administer martial law as ordered by the state
* has the legal responsibility for defending the state
* is legally obligated to obey the state so long as the state has not issued to it illegal orders

Then it's a military. Period. One size fits all. Very simple.

The evolutionary timeline I've presented is just as supportable by existing facts as your position is. I choose mine because it feels right and logical to me, not because I hate soldiers or the military.

I would suggest that your feelings are not particularly logical.
 
The biggest problem here, Geoff, is that you are arguing your case as if it were an article of faith and therefore not subject to logical reproof. We are arguing matters of fact based on evidence and commonly accepted working definitions.

If you're not going to abide by the same logical constraints as we are, then this is no longer an intellectual debate but an ideological one --- and consequently not one I am interested in continuing.
 
this thread has become interesting only on the basis of how Geoff can twist the facts to suit his arguement whilst everyone else spouts logic Spock'd be proud of...

it's a military force. DEAL WITH IT!

so, how about them Yankees?
 
The biggest problem here, Geoff, is that you are arguing your case as if it were an article of faith and therefore not subject to logical reproof. We are arguing matters of fact based on evidence and commonly accepted working definitions.

If you're not going to abide by the same logical constraints as we are, then this is no longer an intellectual debate but an ideological one --- and consequently not one I am interested in continuing.


No. Both sides are omitting or minimizing those aspects fo the canon and those definitions that don't suit thier prior conclusion.

If I wished I could line up a stack of quotes from various officers in all of the series' that explicitly cast Starfleet as a non-military organization. Are they lying? Are they wrong about their own organization? No. Of course not. And, if they're not, all inconsistencies must be called in favor of non-military despite similarities. It's not ideological. It's "factual" and logically deduced from the canon without external bias.

I'm not sure why some folks are getting hot about it. We differ. No big.
 
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this thread has become interesting only on the basis of how Geoff can twist the facts to suit his arguement whilst everyone else spouts logic Spock'd be proud of...

it's a military force. DEAL WITH IT!

so, how about them Yankees?

I find it hilarious myself. When starting this thread i didn`t realise there would be so many people ready to throw down out there.

I think i will throw in with a third option. Some have made very logical cases for why against all evidence to the contrary starfleet is infact not a military organisation:rolleyes:lol. So perhaps it isn`t a)paramilitary or b)military.

From my analysis starfleet is a galactic catering chain. I mean i`ve seen food on every ship and it looks rather nice so i am assuming you only get thoses standards of cuisine from a fleet of ships whose entire crews work towards the goal of making perfect food.

I mean two of the series feature very well stocked bars which would seem to prove they are a traveling resteraunt.

The weapons and security are to prevent clients from pilfering the buffet without paying. The dominion war was actually a promotional gimmick to get ferengi to buy family bags of fed-food (as it is called out that way).

The evidence that this is so is that Deanna once said she eats chocolate, which by her lofty status eliminates any other quote which states any rubbish about the organisation being about defence or exploration. In fact anything stated by Guinan is more important than anything picard ever said as she is clearly in charge of the enterprise-d`s nerve center ten forward.

So, i hear some of you ask, if starfleet is a resteraunt organisation supplying fine wines and excellent food to the peoples of the federation then who are the military who protects the people of the federation from invasion and conquest by enemies?

They have no military. They have no police. They have no defence organisations of any kind. They do not need them because whenever the romulans send a million warbirds to invade they are routed by the mighty secret weapon of all free peoples.... http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=k6Mh7hhaqhk. What more defence could you need?

LOL.
 
i asked my Army vet father and he says Starfleet's clearly military, even if they aren't exactly like the Army, Navy or Air Force. "They're clearly combatants" he said. and he only watched TOS, TNG and a few of VGR. he never saw DS9 and the Dominion War...
 
If I wished I could line up a stack of quotes from various officers in all of the series' that explicitly cast Starfleet as a non-military organization. Are they lying? Are they wrong about their own organization?

It's called Propaganda.
 
i asked my Army vet father and he says Starfleet's clearly military, even if they aren't exactly like the Army, Navy or Air Force. "They're clearly combatants" he said. and he only watched TOS, TNG and a few of VGR. he never saw DS9 and the Dominion War...

Every single person I've asked that I know has watched Star Trek have given me the same sort of reply as follows:

"Of course Starfleet is a military organization! They just happen to be evolved beyond modern-day ones."

Most people then gave me an odd look and said "You *did* know that, right?"
 
People will have to forgive the lack of exact quotations; I've had some computer problems, and the machine I'm on now isn't particularly high-performance and the multi-quote feature seems to bugger things up more than anything else.

So. I did not know that the U.S. Coast Guard was part of the armed forces. I always figured them to be a maritime version of the FBI or something along those lines, and I see on their website that their duties do include law-enforcement (in my defence, the Canadian version of the Coast Guard, which is the one I'm most familiar with, is entirely a civilian affair, answering to the rather non-threatening Department of Fisheries). So the Coast Guard's patrol, anti-piracy/smuggling and search and rescue duties are rather similar to the functions we've seen Starfleet vessels carry out. Their website also states they don't engage in combat operations unless the country is on domestic war-footing (in which case in answers to the Navy), which is also like Starfleet in that the organization only takes on a purseful combat footing when at a time of war (and the entire fleet only mobilizes for a major conflict, since much of Starfleet was going about their usual business during the conflicts with the Cardassians and the Tzenkathi). So, if the Coast Guard could be a military organization almost since its inception, yet retain a distinctly less martial mindset owing, no doubt, to it's chartered mission which emphacizes things like search and rescue and coastal protection against smugglers and such, then Mack's idea of a demilitarized military, as bizarre and on the surface self-contradictory though it may seem, actually has some merit to it. And if such an entity exists contemporarily, then I must admit it becomes a lot easier to see Starfleet as a kind of more evolved, benevolent military organization.

That being said (you knew that was coming, didn't you?), I still don't think it's accurate to define (though not describe) Stafleet as a military conventionally speaking, or at least as not just a military. Starfleet's stated purposes are just too different, even from an organization like the Coast Guard, and its acutal military functions too relagated to the background. Even 'military plus' seems to give the wrong emphasis on the organization's priorities. They're less military than an army, but more than, say, a citizen levy. I would suggest looking at Starfleet as a hybrid, part military, part civilian--not in terms of personel, who are all uniformed, but in terms of pursuits (and to those who said exploration was part of the mandate of past militaries... they didn't explore, they conquered; they didn't wander the oceans for the love of discovery, but for economic and martial gain in conquering new lands and subjugating the people they found. Not quite Starfleet). In particular, I think this discussion has revealed an over-emphasis on form over function. Starfleet has the form, but its military function is just one of many elements of what it does. On the flipside, one could point out a number of comteporary 'organizations' that lack uniforms, strick ranks, legitimate state backing, the ability to hold court-martials, etc... and yet are still, for all intents and purposes, military organizations (Hezbollah, etc.). What someone does is more important, I feel, than how they advertise themselves. So it's not wrong for Picard to say that Starfleet isn't (just, or primarily) a military organization (particularly when tasked with exploration), because clearly he feels that its purposes are not militaristic and has conducted himself appropriately... just as it's legitimate for Sisko to say that he's a soldier, because that's clearly the role he sees himself in this large, multi-purpose hybrid organization, and indeed he spent a lot more time in combat.

Onto some other points... some posters have expressed amazement at the idea that the Federation would defend itself with Stafleet, which is comprised, as we know, of all kinds of specialists, including scientists, engineers, medical professionals, security guards, etc. But the onscreen evidence shows that this is exactly the case. In all combat situtions, particularly the Dominion War, who has been doing the fighting? Sisko and Worf, certainly... but also Dax (both of them), Bashir, O'Brien, Nog... and they've managed to hold their own against so-called 'specialized' combatants like the Klingons and the Jem'Hadar. Clearly, all Stafleet officers are expected to meet some basic standard of combat readiness, just as I imagine they should all be familiar with basic ship's functions and science even if outside their area of specialization. Presumably that's part of the function of the Academy, to give cadets a solid grounding in all fields as they look to specialize. This basic training, then, seems quite sufficient for the purposes of their secondary role as soldiers when conflict situations arise. Let's not overemphacize the importance of training, either. Over the last few years, we've seen groups whose training regimens usually involve a few months in camps out in the desert or mountains fight better trained, better equipped, and better supported forces to an effective stalemate, on account of more flexible tactics, better motivation, and, unfortunately, a total disregard for any kind of rules of engagement or ethics generally. Starfleet is well equipped, well supported, apparently not too shabbily trained as I said above, and also has the flexibility and motivation factors working in their favour. The whole thing about creating a brotherhood, the need to trust that the guy (or gal) next to you won't break and run, isn't really applicable. For starters, the cynic in me recognizes that the whole 'brotherhood' spiel is really a way of trying to motivate soldiers who frequently don't want to be in combat situations--either because, historically, they've been conscripted into a fighting force, or because they're essentially paid mercenaries fighting for causes that seem abstract or otherwise not worth the sacrifice of their lives. The reasoning is that while you might not care about defeating commies in some distant country, or whatever the cause du jour for Iraq is, but you do care about the people firing on your buddies. Starfleet, in contrast, is not only an all-volunteer force (who aren't in it for the money), but they're also idealists; when they fight, it's because they strongly believe in what they're doing. In the Dominion War, they fought to defend their homes and way of life, which is plenty motivation. Most of the time, they also know that combat was the absolutely last recourse of their superiors, so they're fighting not because some politician got impatient, but because there was truly no other choice. Also, a soldier on a modern-day battlefield might have the option of dropping his rifle and running in the opposite direction, but there's really nowhere to run when your ship or space station is being invaded... or when facing an opponent of the size of the Dominion.

Ground forces. Some posters (and I again apologize for the lack of quotations here) said ground forces were necessary, suggesting that's what we finally saw in AR-Something. Apart from there being no evidence that these weren't just regular officers who'd pickled on the frontlines, and that we'd never seen anything like a regular soldiery/infantry before or after, ground forces just don't make much sense in the setting. When you have starships that can devastate a planet from orbit, being a ground trooper is somewhat like bringing a spork to a tank fight. Recall how many caveats were in effect to permit AR-Whatever to take place; recall, also, that other instances of ground combat all took place under special circumstances ("Rocks and Shoals", both starships had crashed without support; "Starship Down", the presence of the Founder precluded the Dominion from just blasting their crashed vessel from orbit). Most of the face-to-face combat that I would envison takes place in this setting would be ship-to-ship (or ship-to-station) boarding actions.

Finally, the whole 'surrounded by enemies' thing, as supposedly requiring a standing specialized soldiery. I don't agree at all. First of all, there's Starfleet, which, as had already been said, has been shown more than capable of holding its own against the professional soldiery of its foes. Secondly, let's keep in mind the sheer size of the Federation. The Romulan army is made up only of Romulans, supplemented by Remans and maybe some other subject species. Klingons, same thing: mostly Klingons. Cardassia, Tzenkath, the Tholians... they're all empires based around a single species, and even if that particular species is very populous (as the Klingons must be, to be killing themselves off so often and still remain so potent), they still have a numerical upper limit. Who defends the Federation? Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, Trill, Betazoids, Rigellians, Capellans... it's a state with hundreds of species, thousands of worlds. The Federation can easily get away with having a much smaller proportion of citizens capable of engaging in combat because their overall population is absolutely massive. Think of the United States in WWII. It was a terrible mistake to attack the Americans not because of the military they had at the time, but because they could mobilize massive population and production infrastructure into expanding and supporting that military. We didn't win World World II because the Germans were cruddy soldiers--they weren't--we won because we had so many more countries, with populations the size of the United States of Russia, that the German lines were choked with bodies and still we kept on coming (moreso on the eastern front, admitedly). Similarly, the Federation at war is capable of mobilizing enormous resources, which is why it was able to fight--at the very least--Cold Wars eventually flaring hot against the Cardassians and the Tzenkathi and still be able to conduct normal operations most elsewhere, or why it was able to take massive losses at Wolf 359 without apparently a concomitant weakening of its interstellar position. Consider who has really threatened the Federation: the Dominion, which was as large (if not bigger) as the Federation, and the Borg, whose superior technology was such that numbers became meaningless. It's an elephant, and you only attack if you've got a number of lions on your side to make up for its size.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
If I wished I could line up a stack of quotes from various officers in all of the series' that explicitly cast Starfleet as a non-military organization. Are they lying? Are they wrong about their own organization?

It's called Propaganda.


So, rather than assume our main and featured characters in the canon material are telling the truth about their motivations and the structure of the organization they joined and would, presumably, die in the service of (if necessary), you presume they are all lying, naive or flat out wrong?

I swear I'm not OCD enough to actually do this but you will find throughout all the series (even ENT, I believe) multiple unequivocal statements about the nature and purpose of Starfleet's not being a military organization.

In the real world, as writers and readers who live in the 21st century, we know that this argument only exists because Gene and his people told occasionally contradictory stories, putting words into the mouths of the various characters that contradict those of others or have them engaged in activities that undercut those words. That inconsistency in the service of chasing a good story has made this discussion possible. But we don't have the luxury of tossing those inconsistencies we don't like out in favor of those we do. We have to find ways to make all of them line up.

In the context of the universe, as described by the people IN that universe, you have to assume truth is being told unless you are specifically informed otherwise.

The Federation is NOT surrounded by enemies. We've seen the maps.

The Federation has no armed forced as we understand that term. They say so and we've seen no contradictory evidence to say otherwise.

The Federation is a mishmash of various TOTALLY ALIEN cultures working together for a common good which is NOT based on fear of outsiders or protection from enemies but mutual benefit and growth. We've seen the easy interaction of multiple humans with unfamiliar species and societies, both members of the Federation and non members. At no time do the humans react with kneejerk xenophobia. Modern humans cannot make that claim even about one another. Ergo something in us, something fundamental, has changed.

The Federation is organized around basically democratic values and seems to have a Bikl of Rights similar to thise enjoyed in the west (Innocent until rpoven guilty, etc). They have a President and in several of the novels (AotF cheif among them) we have seen the workings of that government and hints of the election process.

The Federation, officially, does not enjoy capitalism as we know it but seems to enjoy a complex barter system based not on currency but on exchange of information and skills. Multiple officers have expressed surprise that a new culture is "still using money." While, also being comfy with the fact that the Ferengi Alliance is driven it.

Replicator technology, alone, would remove nearly every motivation for conflict that currently exists and would, necessarily, shape the DESIRE for armed forces, out of humanity just as constant contact with and intermarriage with aliens has shaped xenophobia out of most of us (except Bones who is still a bigot on some level).

And, of course, we have the unequivocal, unparsable statements by members of the fictional society who describe it as something other than the opposition asserts.

I take the members of that society, fictional or not, at their word when describing where and how they live. Why don't you?
 
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So it's not wrong for Picard to say that Starfleet isn't (just, or primarily) a military organization...


See, that's just it. Nobody said SF was JUST a military or even primarily one. But that it is ALSO a military. An organization can be multiple things at once. Starfleet is a military, it is ALSO an exploratory organization, there are any number of other things we could say Starfleet is. The fact that the organization is ridiculously huge and has a great many functions does not make the functions that define a military any less military. Starfleet has ALL of the things required to be called a military--ALL OF THEM-- with no exceptions, the fact they they also have a great many other things that are not apart of standard militaries does not make them any less a military.

There is no reason why Starfleet's primary mission can't be exploration and it STILL be a military too.

No one, not even RedJack, has named a single thing about Starfleet that is in direct contrast to the definition of a military. Families on board a ship does not make them non-military. Going on peaceful/diplomatic missions does not make them a non-military. Exploring the unknown does not make them a non-military. There is nothing in the definition of military that says "Militaries only go on hostile/dangerous missions." There exist nowhere in the definition of the word that says "Militaries NEVER allow family members aboard a ship." Not even is there "Military officers ALWAYS tell exactly the truth about the organization when questioned by outside parties." Every one of these are personal perspective of what a person thinks is their idea of a military -- unfortunately the word has a meaning contrary to ones own personal opinion. --This is reminiscent of the word 'canon' that people like to redefine on a constant basis.
 
If I wished I could line up a stack of quotes from various officers in all of the series' that explicitly cast Starfleet as a non-military organization. Are they lying? Are they wrong about their own organization?

It's called Propaganda.


So, rather than assume our main and featured characters in the canon material are telling the truth about their motivations and the structure of the organization they joined and would, presumably, die in the service of (if necessary), you presume they are all lying, naive or flat out wrong?

No, I presume they're trying to show their organization in the most positive light. And as shown by your reactions to the term military, this term has a certain negative ring for some, so naturally Starfleet officers often try to minimize the military aspect of their organization, and try to highlight their scientific and humanitarian work more, especially when trying to make a good first impression to unknown races.
 
I love it when people trot out the old tired cliché that "if you can nuke a planet from orbit, you don't need ground troops". :lol: If you want to capture, and hold, an area of ground, you sure as shit DO need troops. What's the point of fighting for territory if you have to destroy it?
 
The Federation is NOT surrounded by enemies. We've seen the maps.

The Federation has no armed forced as we understand that term. They say so and we've seen no contradictory evidence to say otherwise.

The Federtion is a mishmash of various TOTALLY ALIEN cultures working together for a common good which is NOT based on fear of outsiders or protection from enemies but mutual benefit and growth. We've seen the easy interaction of multiple humans with unfamiliar species and societies, both as members of the federation and non members. At no time do the react with xenophobia. Modern humans cannot make that claim even about one another. Ergo something has changed.

The Federation is organized around basically democratic values and seems to have a Bikl of Rights similar to thise enjoyed in the west (Innocent until rpoven guilty, etc). They have a President and in several of the novels (AotF cheif among them) we have seen the workings of that government and hints of the election process.

The Federation, officially, does not enjoy capitalism as we know it but seems to enjoy a complex barter system based not on currency but on exchange of information and skills. Multiple officers have expressed surprise that a new culture is "still using money." While, also being comfy with the fact that the Ferengi Alliance is driven it.

Replicator technology, alone, would remove nearly every motivation for conflict that currently exists and would, necessarily, shape the DESIRE for armed forces, out of humanity just as constant contact with and intermarriage with aliens has shaped xenophobia out of most of us (except Bones who is still a bigot on some level).

And, of course, we have the unequivocal, unparsable statements by members of the fictional society who describe it as something other than the opposition asserts.

I take the members of that society, fictional or not, at their word when describing where and how they live. Why don't you?


Surrounding by enemies or not does not affect whether or not a military exists. One need not be surrounded to have one. Neither does one need to have one if surrounded.

They do too have armed forces. Every ship has weapons (even the science vessels) and every officer takes a phaser with them on away missions (even peaceful ones). They are all every bit of armed.

Now, we're talking about the Federation (the government) not Starfleet (the military). The Federation is that which they joined. The nation of the Federation however is protected by their military--Starfleet.

The federation is democratic.. Starfleet is ABSOLUTELY NOT democratic, otherwise they wouldn't have a rank structure and orders would never be given, each officer would vote on every decision.

Not sure how capitalism affects a military's existance... :wtf:

Replicator tech removed most of the internal conflict, yes. But given all the ludicrous amounts of space and ground battles we've seen in all Star Trek series obviously this hasn't removed any such conflicts at all. Not to mention the lack of conflict does not have any bearing on whether or not a military can exist. Conflict does not need to exist for a military to exist too. Does the US military suddenly cease existing when all wars are over and it is peace time? Of course not.

These statements are hardly unequivocal and unparseable. You need to take them all into context. If you are heavily armed and trying to meet new people, why would you tell them "We are a military organization" when you know (as evidence by this thread especially) that the preconceived ideas behind a military are that they are militant and belligerent. Picard choosing to state that they are an Exploratory organization helps diffuse
the idea that they are just flexing their muscle. Just like as you pointed out that Sisko stated he was a soldier because that's what he was doing at the time. So does this make him NOT an explorer too? Just because Sisko is a soldier, doesn't exclude him from being an explorer. Just like Starfleet being exploratory does not exclude them from being military.
 
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