Worst Episode of VOY Season Two Part Two

[teya]

It wasn't Taylor it was Piller who wrote this episode.

Jeri Taylor wrote Chakotay's back story.

And I think you are being overly sensitive and reading far, far, far more into the idea of the backstory of Indians being part alien. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

And, yanno, just like some Irish took offense to "Up the Long Ladder," so I do to Akoochimoya and all that crap.

If you're going to show an ethnic group in the future, it helps not to make it a bunch of tired stereotypes.

That's all Chakotay's ethnicity is--a bunch of old stereotypes. Tribe Hollywood.

YMMV and obviously does. To each his own.

 

[startrekwatcher]

And, yanno, just like some Irish took offense to "Up the Long Ladder," so I do to Akoochimoya and all that crap.

That's fine but I think people being offended by stereotypes in a tv show need to lighten up. Anyone watching Up the Long Ladder, Fair Haven, Sub Rosa, Tattoo etc aren't going to assume those depicted are really like that in real life. Heck by that logic Trek fans should be offended by the way they are portrayed or nerds/geeks are seen as being unattractive, socially awkward etc.

If you're going to show an ethnic group in the future, it helps not to make it a bunch of tired stereotypes.

Well Chakotay didn't have long braided hair, didn't live in a teepee, didn't have a drinking problem etc. So they didn't feed into a lot of stereotypes. They had him being a vegetarian, showed that he didn't know how to construct a bow and arrow in Basics etc.

 

[teya]

Well Chakotay didn't have long braided hair, didn't live in a teepee, didn't have a drinking problem etc. So they didn't feed into a lot of stereotypes. They had him being a vegetarian, showed that he didn't know how to construct a bow and arrow in Basics etc.

Well, it's obvious that you're not an American Indian, if that's what you consider "stereotypical."

Nice try, though.

And, yanno, thinking about it, it's not so much "offense" as it's disappointment. I expected Trek could do better.

And, well, as an indigenous American, I reserve the right to be disappointed.

And if that bothers you for some reason, well... tough.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Well, it's obvious that you're not an American Indian, if that's what you consider "stereotypical."

Then tell me what stereotypes did VOY perpetutate and what would you have them do to portray Indians more appropriately.

 

[teya]

Well, it's obvious that you're not an American Indian, if that's what you consider "stereotypical."

Then tell me what stereotypes did VOY perpetutate and what would you have them do to portray Indians more appropriately.

Our cultures are varied. They could have started by giving him a tribe--as Beltran suggested.

Voyager perpetuated the "ecological Indian"--a stereotype that has no basis in historical fact.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Well, it's obvious that you're not an American Indian, if that's what you consider "stereotypical."

Then tell me what stereotypes did VOY perpetutate and what would you have them do to portray Indians more appropriately.

Our cultures are varied. They could have started by giving him a tribe--as Beltran suggested.

Voyager perpetuated the "ecological Indian"--a stereotype that has no basis in historical fact.

Is that the only stereotype? You made it seem that VOY had brought out every conceivable stereotype regarding Native Americans. If anything Chakotay was so underdeveloped and ignored as a character that the writers couldn't do much to offend. The writers stopped focusing on his heritage with Basics.

 

[teya]

Then tell me what stereotypes did VOY perpetutate and what would you have them do to portray Indians more appropriately.

Our cultures are varied. They could have started by giving him a tribe--as Beltran suggested.

Voyager perpetuated the "ecological Indian"--a stereotype that has no basis in historical fact.

Is that the only stereotype? You made it seem that VOY had brought out every conceivable stereotype regarding Native Americans. If anything Chakotay was so underdeveloped and ignored as a character that the writers couldn't do much to offend. The writers stopped focusing on his heritage with Basics.

The lack of a real-world background for the culture is the biggest offense, IMO. It made a an American Indian character unrecognizable as such to American Indians. Chakotay became another Tonto.

Obviously not a big deal to you.

A big deal to us.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Our cultures are varied. They could have started by giving him a tribe--as Beltran suggested.

Voyager perpetuated the "ecological Indian"--a stereotype that has no basis in historical fact.

Is that the only stereotype? You made it seem that VOY had brought out every conceivable stereotype regarding Native Americans. If anything Chakotay was so underdeveloped and ignored as a character that the writers couldn't do much to offend. The writers stopped focusing on his heritage with Basics.

The lack of a real-world background for the culture is the biggest offense, IMO. It made a an American Indian character unrecognizable as such to American Indians. Chakotay became another Tonto.

Obviously not a big deal to you.

A big deal to us.

Fine but you failed to answer my question. As a Native American, can you tell us what real-world aspects of your heritage would the writers have included?

As I said a lt of stereotypes that I'm aware of you said weren't stereotypes.

 

[teya]

Fine but you failed to answer my question. As a Native American, can you tell us what real-world aspects of your heritage would the writers have included?

Since we are over 500 nations, it would depend on what nation was chosen, wouldn't it?

They could have then based religious practices in some kind of historical & cultural context.

What seems to go over the heads of people in the majority culture is that NA identity is based very much in the collective--part of who we are as individuals is based on our nation, our clan, our band. They didn't give Chakotay this very fundamental part of his identity as an Indian.

As I said a lt of stereotypes that I'm aware of you said weren't stereotypes.

I didn't say they weren't stereotypes--I said they weren't the *only* stereotypes of American Indians.

 

[Laren]

Innocence just bores me.

 

[Kegek]

And, yanno, just like some Irish took offense to "Up the Long Ladder," so I do to Akoochimoya and all that crap.

That's fine but I think people being offended by stereotypes in a tv show need to lighten up. Anyone watching Up the Long Ladder, Fair Haven,

While "Fair Haven" was pretty much your stereotypical Hollywood 'ach, the Irish' fluff, I can't honestly say I was offended by it. I thought having Picardo as the village priest was a rather charming touch. Which isn't a ringing endorsement, either.

"Up the Long Ladder", however, suggests that, in the distant future, the Irish go out into space to be colonists will be drawn from the pages of Punch as a bunch of raucuously stupid stereotypes that were a century out of date when the episode aired. I find that every bit as repugnant as "Code of Honor."

 

[chancellorjake]

Threshold

 

[Evil_Kirkneivel]

resistance
parturition
dreadnought

____________________________________________
Star Trek Voyager episode summaries and reviews at:
http://startrekvoyagerreviewzoo.blogspot.com/

 

[Dragonfly]

My personal least fave (The Thaw) didn't make the poll, so I voted for Elogium. I actually really liked Threshold. Not practical/realistic, maybe, but I found it very entertaining.

 

[Helmgirlie]

Threshold wins hands down!

But, may I ask, what on earth is "Innocence" doing among the least favorite eps?????? I admit that the reverse aging may be more than just a bit stupid, but the relationship between Tuvie and those kids is stellar and gives us a lot of insight into his character and how much he misses his family!

I agree. And I thought "Innocence" was a great!! episode!

Threshold was one of my least favorite too