Worst Episode Not Involving Lizard Babies

[exodus]

THE DINOSAUR ONE! Crap, I had forgotten all about that. That one might actually have been worse than Threshold. No, wait, Tom Paris pulled out his tongue. Lizard babies. No, Threshold was still worse. But the Dinosaur one was a Very. Close. Second.

Ah, c'mon! Distan Origin is one of the best Voyager Episodes. Yes the Dinosaur part is a bit silly but the episode itself, besides being quite fresh by telling the story mostly from the point of view of the Voth scientists and with great make up/visual effects/direction/acting/continuity, is a very interesting and compelling analogy in the great tradition of Star Trek...

They used Dinos because they couldn't use Apes.

"Distant Origin" is paying homage to "Planet of the Apes"
Remember Dr. Zaius didn't want the mass population to know about the cave with the baby doll because it would prove man came first, they were related as a species and was intelligent. He feared the knowledge would destroy the foundation of the life apes lived. So he exiled Charlton Heston and put Zera into scientific obscurity to keep the secret safe .

 

[freak]

Teya: I would have to disagree with you about both "Coda" and "Resolutions". Those are actually on my top 10 believe it or not! I really enjoyed "Coda" for it's storyline and for the fact that there were some powerful scenes in it(especially the scene where Chakotay is bawling over Janeway dying!) as well as a good ending. I loved her line:"Go back to hell, coward!"
As for "Resolutions", for me it was hopeful, even though it kind of came crashing down in the end. So I guess we can agree to disagree. To each his own.
I do, however, sort of agree about "Tattoo". I wasn't offensive, but I could have done without the "rubber tree people" crap that was put in.

 

[exodus]

^^I'm going to disagree with you.
As someone who is part Native American and a person of color, "Tattoo" is very offensive. While it may not be intentional, it was plain ignorance not to know better. However, the ideas is a mis-represented concept that I believe began from the film "2001". Many film makers miss the point that Kubrick didn't use race(s) of people, he instead used chimps to represent ALL mankind not just one race or culture.

 

[freak]

I'm just wondering why alot of posters here think that "Tattoo" is so offensive. Are there examples that can be given to support this idea or theory? Just curious is all.

 

[Tachyon]

I liked Tattoo.

 

[Lynx]

I'm just wondering why alot of posters here think that "Tattoo" is so offensive. Are there examples that can be given to support this idea or theory? Just curious is all.

The problem with "Tattoo" is that it portrayed Native Americans (or Indians) as if they had been dependent on alien "help" to develope. Compared that to other races and people who have developed without such help and you'll see that it's insulting to the Native Americans.

It was also the whole scenario with a faked tribe with a faked language deep in the Central American forests. You don't find crewmembers coming from fake European countries speaking some invented language.

There are parts of this episode I actually like, as when we get some insight in Chakotay's background, his conflict with his father and why he did choose to leave the tribe. The sub-plot with The Doctor's simulated flu is actually funny and saves the episode.

If I had been in charge, I would have done this episode totally different. I would have omitted the whole thing with those aliens, "The Sky Spirits". Instead I would have stranded Chakotay on some planet with a landscape resembling a Central American rain forest. While he's trying to survive and wait for Voyager to find him, he could have had these flashbacks to his childhood and we would have got his background story that way.

I would also have given Chakotay a real tribe, let's say the Maya people and come up with some real facts about them, not some invented Hollywood tribe.

I would definitely have kept the sub-plot with The Doctor's simulated flu!

When it comes to "Coda", this episode is actually good until the last minutes of the episode. When all that has happened is simply dismissed as some alien parasite trying to take over Janeway, the whole thing just falls apart as another of Brannon Braga's attempts to ram his militant atheism down the throats of the viewers. hey could have brought Janeway back to life without that ending.

The comment "Go back to hell, coward!" is actually great itself but could have been used at some other place in some other episode.

 

[Triskelion]

I just don't understand how you can write a "Native American" culture without even mentioning the name of the tribe, featuring any kind of history or connection to known tribes, or some mention of how history turned theirs into a generic melange culture. I feel there was a lot of writing opportunity lost there, and it would be nice to have a better handle on the Chakotay character - it wouldn't have to be a known culture, but dammit, did it at least have a name???

 

[exodus]

I'm just wondering why alot of posters here think that "Tattoo" is so offensive. Are there examples that can be given to support this idea or theory? Just curious is all.

The problem with "Tattoo" is that it portrayed Native Americans (or Indians) as if they had been dependent on alien "help" to develope. Compared that to other races and people who have developed without such help and you'll see that it's insulting to the Native Americans.

It was also the whole scenario with a faked tribe with a faked language deep in the Central American forests. You don't find crewmembers coming from fake European countries speaking some invented language.

There are parts of this episode I actually like, as when we get some insight in Chakotay's background, his conflict with his father and why he did choose to leave the tribe. The sub-plot with The Doctor's simulated flu is actually funny and saves the episode.

If I had been in charge, I would have done this episode totally different. I would have omitted the whole thing with those aliens, "The Sky Spirits". Instead I would have stranded Chakotay on some planet with a landscape resembling a Central American rain forest. While he's trying to survive and wait for Voyager to find him, he could have had these flashbacks to his childhood and we would have got his background story that way.

I would also have given Chakotay a real tribe, let's say the Maya people and come up with some real facts about them, not some invented Hollywood tribe.

I would definitely have kept the sub-plot with The Doctor's simulated flu!

I like your idea way, way better.

 

[Lynx]

^^
Thanks!

 

[JustKate]

Now that I think about it, a fake tribe might not have been so bad...so long as they invented a reasonably credible tribe. I mean, it wouldn't work (IMO) with an Earth-based tribe, but since Chakotay's tribe had relocated from Earth to another planet, TPTB really had quite a bit of freedom to come up with something a little bit different - for example, who's to say that everybody who moved to that planet came from the precise same tribe? It could have been several tribes that banded together for this great adventure in emigration. And who's to say it wouldn't have changed with a change in environment?

That way, it could have protected TPTB from exposing their ignorance of a real culture and given them plenty of fresh plot opportunities. But it would have given Chakotay a better and more interesting background. Not as good as just picking one real tribe and sticking with it, of course - I mean, sheesh, it's not like there aren't lots of different options - but better than the one we ended up with.

 

[exodus]

Now that I think about it, a fake tribe might not have been so bad...so long as they invented a reasonably credible tribe. I mean, it wouldn't work (IMO) with an Earth-based tribe, but since Chakotay's tribe had relocated from Earth to another planet, TPTB really had quite a bit of freedom to come up with something a little bit different - for example, who's to say that everybody who moved to that planet came from the precise same tribe? It could have been several tribes that banded together for this great adventure in emigration. And who's to say it wouldn't have changed with a change in environment?

That's IMO is insulting too.
No European or White American culture is an amalgam of other cultures regardless of the Federations intergration. Chakotay culture is from Earth, therefore it should be based on a actual indentifible culture and tribe. Taking liberties with a culture is what started this offence in the first place.

 

[JustKate]

What? All European/white cultures are amalgams of other cultures. All cultures that aren't isolated take at least elements of other cultures as their own, and some take lots of elements.

I am sorry, Exodus, but I don't see anything "insulting" in postulating that an Earth culture, whatever its origin, would evolve if it moved to another planet. In fact, I think it's...well, not insulting but odd to assume that such a culture wouldn't change. Could you explain to me how that is an insulting thesis?

But I agree that a real, actual tribe for Chakotay would have been better than any combination, however well thought out (which it probably wouldn't have been anyway). I said so, if you'll recall, right here:

Not as good as just picking one real tribe and sticking with it, of course - I mean, sheesh, it's not like there aren't lots of different options - but better than the one we ended up with.

 

[kimc]

What? All European/white cultures are amalgams of other cultures. All cultures that aren't isolated take at least elements of other cultures as their own, and some take lots of elements.

This is true. Taking Great Britain as just one example you have the Norman invasions, the Saxons already living there, the Vikings dropping in for periodic "visits", the Roman invasions, the intermixing of Welsh, Irish, Scots, etc. While there are distinctions among the various cultures there's really no such thing as "cultural purity".

What we think of as Italy today was actually a bunch of principalities finally united under Garibaldi. Bismark did the same for Germany. It's not a far stretch to imagine a few Indian tribes united in a similar fashion under one leader who was charismatic enough to pull it off.

 

[JustKate]

^ Britain was in fact exactly the example I was thinking of, Kimc.

And I was also thinking about how much cultures have changed when they were forced to - and not only when forced to by outsiders (as happened during the European conquest of the Americas). For example, the Ancestral Puebloan people of the Mesa Verde region in the Southwestern U.S. lived in small villages for hundreds of years, then built themselves villages in the cliffs (now referred to as cliff dwellings - here's a photo for those unfamiliar with these fantastic structures: https://imrcms.nps.gov/meve/index.htm), and then were forced by drought to abandon the cliff dwellings and the Mesa Verde area, and eventually evolved into the Pueblo culture that still exists today.

Where you live and how you live does change a culture, sometimes a lot.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

If they had given Chakotay a real world tribe you would have people saying that they weren't portrayed 100% accurately too.

This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations.

I really don't get the charges of discrimination here. Were Chakotay and the so called "Rubber Tree People" portrayed as noble and honorable beings? Yes they were. Isn't that what is important?

 

[exodus]

I am sorry, Exodus, but I don't see anything "insulting" in postulating that an Earth culture, whatever its origin, would evolve if it moved to another planet. Could you explain to me how that is an insulting thesis?

As I said, isn't that what caused all this controversy to begin with?

 

[JustKate]

I didn't think so, but maybe I've missed something. (I did go back and re-read the thread, so if I missed it before, I'm still missing it now!) "Tatoo," if I remember correctly, postulated that aliens helped Chakotay's tribe develop back when it was on the Earth. That's not what I'm talking about. And yeah, that is insulting. At least it would insult me, if it were said about my ancestors.

All I'm saying is that if Chakotay's tribe moved to a different planet, which it did, it would quite possibly change in some ways all on its own, just as peoples all over Earth evolved when they made some big change - e.g., stopped being hunters and gatherers and began farming, or when the Plains tribes adopted horses as part of their culture.

 

[exodus]

I didn't think so, but maybe I've missed something. (I did go back and re-read the thread, so if I missed it before, I'm still missing it now!) "Tatoo," if I remember correctly, postulated that aliens helped Chakotay's tribe develop back when it was on the Earth. That's not what I'm talking about. And yeah, that is insulting. At least it would insult me, if it were said about my ancestors.

All I'm saying is that if Chakotay's tribe moved to a different planet, which it did, it would quite possibly change in some ways all on its own, just as peoples all over Earth evolved when they made some big change - e.g., stopped being hunters and gatherers and began farming, or when the Plains tribes adopted horses as part of their culture.

Then forgive me, I clearly misunderstood the point of origin you were coming from on this.

No harm, no foul.

 

[freak]

I'm just wondering why alot of posters here think that "Tattoo" is so offensive. Are there examples that can be given to support this idea or theory? Just curious is all.

The problem with "Tattoo" is that it portrayed Native Americans (or Indians) as if they had been dependent on alien "help" to develope. Compared that to other races and people who have developed without such help and you'll see that it's insulting to the Native Americans.

It was also the whole scenario with a faked tribe with a faked language deep in the Central American forests. You don't find crewmembers coming from fake European countries speaking some invented language.

There are parts of this episode I actually like, as when we get some insight in Chakotay's background, his conflict with his father and why he did choose to leave the tribe. The sub-plot with The Doctor's simulated flu is actually funny and saves the episode.

If I had been in charge, I would have done this episode totally different. I would have omitted the whole thing with those aliens, "The Sky Spirits". Instead I would have stranded Chakotay on some planet with a landscape resembling a Central American rain forest. While he's trying to survive and wait for Voyager to find him, he could have had these flashbacks to his childhood and we would have got his background story that way.

I would also have given Chakotay a real tribe, let's say the Maya people and come up with some real facts about them, not some invented Hollywood tribe.

I would definitely have kept the sub-plot with The Doctor's simulated flu!

When it comes to "Coda", this episode is actually good until the last minutes of the episode. When all that has happened is simply dismissed as some alien parasite trying to take over Janeway, the whole thing just falls apart as another of Brannon Braga's attempts to ram his militant atheism down the throats of the viewers. hey could have brought Janeway back to life without that ending.

The comment "Go back to hell, coward!" is actually great itself but could have been used at some other place in some other episode.

Ok, now I completely understand why "Tattoo" is viewed as being "insulting to Native Americans". I also kinda wished that Chakotay had come from the Mayan tribe..at least give the guy's Native American ancestry a name for crying out loud! Thanks for the insight into that..I was just very curious cause even though it had it's faults, I actually liked "Tattoo" cause it gave the audience an insight into Chakotay's past..but like I said before, I could have done without the "Rubber Tree People" theory and the "Sky Spirits" thing.

As for "Coda" this episode was great all the way through the end..I do agree, however, that they should have brought back Janeway a different way without the alien and his matrix. Kinda strange if you ask me. But that's Star Trek for ya!

 

[JustKate]

^^ No problem. Communication can be hard.