Is Robert Beltran of Native American descent? Why not just use the actor's real tribe?
Worst Episode Not Involving Lizard Babies
- Thread starter Triskelion
- Start date
Good point. Earlier I was thinking of how one culture ca influence another but even if you have a group that comes from a forest move to a desert environment the new area is going to impact that culture. The same would most likely be true for Chakotay's tribe after they colonized the new planet.
I can't believe no one has mentioned "Sacred Ground". That episode was awful.
There's also the historical fact that the US Government officially declared that the indigenous population was not human.
And it wasn't until 1926 that they backed away from that.
Some 50 years later, Jeri Taylor tells us that we really aren't completely human.
It's irksome.
Like most Mexicans, he's of mixed race. When asked to suggest a tribe, he said he didn't know specifically what tribe his family was from, so made the most excellent suggestion of Maya.
Given that there's a huge urban Mayan population in SoCal, it shouldn't have been hard for TPTB to find some.
This, I don't understand. In various instances of Native American folklore, spirits impart knowledge/skills to humans. In "Star Trek," gods and "spirits" are usually replaced with aliens. The main problem I saw was that it was hokey, bore no resemblance to any Native American culture, and the visuals were terrible (that alien was a friggen white European dude).
No argument there.
You mean you didn't like New Age Wiccan Chakotay from Tribe X????
Why? Religion and spirituality are crammed down my throat by TV and movies all the time. "Star Trek" is one of the few places I can get a respite from that junk. I find it refreshing that there are writers who won't walk on eggshells just to avoid offending the Judeo/Christian population.
Oh, and "Coda" dealt with near death experiences. "Atheism" addresses the question of belief in a god. It doesn't have anything to do with NDEs.
And "Star Trek" also told us that The Founders planted there genetic material throughout the galaxy, meaning that no human is "completely human."
you do understand, you just don't know it.
The dark skinned Native American's were dumb simple savages until the white Alien gave them intelligence and made them civilized. It implies that Indians couldn't create any of the amazing things like written language, the Mayan calender, etc. without white/aliens men.
you do understand, you just don't know it.
The dark skinned Native American's were dumb simple savages until the white Alien gave them intelligence and made them civilized. It implies that Indians couldn't create any of the amazing things like written language, the Mayan calender, etc. without white/aliens men.
Out of idle curiosity, do you think it would have been better if the "Sky Spirit" wasn't so obviously a white European dude? I would've found it slightly less annoying if perhaps the alien resembled a "spirit" or something.
Yes.you do understand, you just don't know it.
The dark skinned Native American's were dumb simple savages until the white Alien gave them intelligence and made them civilized. It implies that Indians couldn't create any of the amazing things like written language, the Mayan calender, etc. without white/aliens men.
Out of idle curiosity, do you think it would have been better if the "Sky Spirit" wasn't so obviously a white European dude? I would've found it slightly less annoying if perhaps the alien resembled a "spirit" or something.
I would have made it more surreal.
Something like what Lynx suggested that Chakotay would learn his origins thru "visions" from members of his family. Kinda how DS9 represented the Prophets to Sisko.
The fact that they were on an alien planet across the galaxy was alien enough. I don't think they really needed to show actual aliens to flesh out his culture.
IMO, if the writers had come up with this story about say Janeway, they would have found it stupid and probably trashed it. So why was such a stupid story acceptable for someone like Chakotay?
I agree that a real tribe would have presented its own difficulties, but at least they would be difficulties about something real - real problems involving real people and real history. And if TPTB did decent research, and God knows there's lots of research readily available on the civilizations of Mesoamerica in addition to actual English-speaking representatives of at least some of those cultures available there on the spot in SoCal - it need not even have been that big of an issue.
Instead what we got was the NeverneverLand Tribe. It's just silly.
Look at it this way, Destro: Surely the intentions of TPTB were to give a little diversity to the crew of Voyager. Well, what's a better way to represent diversity? Representing a real culture or representing a fake one?
But as I mentioned earlier, a fake one need not have been that bad, if some trouble had been taken with it. It wouldn't have been as valuable as a real culture, IMO, but it could have been a lot better than what we got.
Well, sort of but not really. A positive stereotype is better than a negative stereotype, but what's best is no stereotype at all. And I would add that although the Rubber Tree People were presented as noble and honorable, they were also presented as being unable to develop their own culture without help from an outsider. It's a very patronizing idea - and one, I might add, that's been popular far too many times here in the real world.
I expect modern-day Egyptians (those who don't find it screamingly funny, that is) aren't all that wild about the "theory" that aliens built the pyramids, and I know for a fact that modern Pueblo Indians truly loathe the once-common theory that the builders of the magnificent cliff dwellings of the Southwestern U.S. just "mysteriously disappeared." They didn't disappear - they quit building cliff dwellings and moved away from that area, but they eventually became the Pueblo Indians, who are still around today and whose direct descent from the builders of the cliff dwellings is (as far as I know) undisputed. But apparently early archeologists just didn't find the modern-day pueblos as impressive as the cliff dwellings and so they came up with this "mysterious disappearance" thing. That's also pretty darn patronizing, if you ask me.
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This is a bit crazy actually but I was just listening to a Doors album while checking the different threads and actually replying in one of them. Then while I'm reading the recent posts in this thread, the song "Not To Touch The Earth" comes up with the words at the end:
"I'm the Lizard King
I can do anything"
And then finally I know how I would have liked to see "Threshold" end.
With Janeway waking up in cold sweat, realizing that it was just a nightmare and a spooky voice (the original from Jim Morrison, of course) heard in the background, saying:
"I'm the Lizard King
I can do anything"
Now that would have turned "Threshold" from a disaster to......well, not a masterpiece but at least a decent and acceptable episode.
"I'm the Lizard King
I can do anything"
And then finally I know how I would have liked to see "Threshold" end.
With Janeway waking up in cold sweat, realizing that it was just a nightmare and a spooky voice (the original from Jim Morrison, of course) heard in the background, saying:
"I'm the Lizard King
I can do anything"
Now that would have turned "Threshold" from a disaster to......well, not a masterpiece but at least a decent and acceptable episode.
"Threshold" is one of those story's that sound good on paper and they didn't see the flaws until after they got feedback. Happens all the time on TV, look at the 6th season of Buffy or the Rosanne finale.
Yes.you do understand, you just don't know it.
The dark skinned Native American's were dumb simple savages until the white Alien gave them intelligence and made them civilized. It implies that Indians couldn't create any of the amazing things like written language, the Mayan calender, etc. without white/aliens men.
Out of idle curiosity, do you think it would have been better if the "Sky Spirit" wasn't so obviously a white European dude? I would've found it slightly less annoying if perhaps the alien resembled a "spirit" or something.
I would have made it more surreal.
Something like what Lynx suggested that Chakotay would learn his origins thru "visions" from members of his family. Kinda how DS9 represented the Prophets to Sisko.
The fact that they were on an alien planet across the galaxy was alien enough. I don't think they really needed to show actual aliens to flesh out his culture.
IMO, if the writers had come up with this story about say Janeway, they would have found it stupid and probably trashed it. So why was such a stupid story acceptable for someone like Chakotay?
Probably because the writers had already written-off Chakotay.
From My Signature
"EndShame"
BUT I Call it "EvenMoreShame"
YES Endgame
"EndShame"
BUT I Call it "EvenMoreShame"
YES Endgame
Wow, judging from this review "Innocence" is a big pile of balls. 
As with GodBen, I don't entirely agree with Sonnenburg/sfdebris reviews, but I agree "Innocence" was as bad as "Threshold" in terms of distorting biological science.
As with GodBen, I don't entirely agree with Sonnenburg/sfdebris reviews, but I agree "Innocence" was as bad as "Threshold" in terms of distorting biological science.
