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Wonder Woman's new look: At long last, pants!

It's funny that JMS or Jim Lee are concerned about the practicallity of the costume of a character that is usually lines on a paper or a screen.

Why is it funny for a creator of fiction to be concerned with credibility? A lot of fiction is "just" letters on a page, but the writers of such fiction still generally strive to create a convincing illusion of characters and environments that behave in believable ways. It makes no sense whatsoever to ridicule the notion of the creators of a story trying to tell that story in a believable way. I could write the sentence "Joe walked out of his Cincinnati house, crossed the street, and entered the Louvre in Paris," but nobody would take it seriously in a story, because even though it's "just" letters on a screen, it represents something analogous to physical reality, and thus is subject to an expectation of plausibility. The audience's acceptance of a work of fiction is called willing suspension of disbelief, not mandatory suspension. If you want as much of your audience as possible to accept what you write (or draw) as believable, you have to make some effort to acknowledge realistic parameters

True, comic books have not always striven for very much in the way of believability, but sometimes they have. And it certainly isn't fair to ridicule someone for choosing to make the effort. Do you think it was wrong or risible for Stan Lee to strive for a more realistic approach to characterization, to write about people with realistic imperfections and problems and relationships instead of the one-dimensional, idealized heroes of earlier comics? Most people think that increase in realism was a good move. Even though those characters are just drawings on paper and their passions and doubts and loves and fears and needs are just letters in oval bubbles.
 
I'd also say digital distribution on a PC/Mac would help

Nonsense. Comic book pages are works of art unto themselves. It's not merely that each panel has its own composition, but the page as a whole has its own composition, which is lost viewing comic books panel by panel.
 
It's funny that JMS or Jim Lee are concerned about the practicallity of the costume of a character that is usually lines on a paper or a screen.

Why is it funny for a creator of fiction to be concerned with credibility? A lot of fiction is "just" letters on a page, but the writers of such fiction still generally strive to create a convincing illusion of characters and environments that behave in believable ways. It makes no sense whatsoever to ridicule the notion of the creators of a story trying to tell that story in a believable way. I could write the sentence "Joe walked out of his Cincinnati house, crossed the street, and entered the Louvre in Paris," but nobody would take it seriously in a story, because even though it's "just" letters on a screen, it represents something analogous to physical reality, and thus is subject to an expectation of plausibility. The audience's acceptance of a work of fiction is called willing suspension of disbelief, not mandatory suspension. If you want as much of your audience as possible to accept what you write (or draw) as believable, you have to make some effort to acknowledge realistic parameters

True, comic books have not always striven for very much in the way of believability, but sometimes they have. And it certainly isn't fair to ridicule someone for choosing to make the effort. Do you think it was wrong or risible for Stan Lee to strive for a more realistic approach to characterization, to write about people with realistic imperfections and problems and relationships instead of the one-dimensional, idealized heroes of earlier comics? Most people think that increase in realism was a good move. Even though those characters are just drawings on paper and their passions and doubts and loves and fears and needs are just letters in oval bubbles.
If your focus is on the possibility of her boobs flying out of her top rather than the words coming out of her mouth, then I think as a writer you've picked the wrong character to work on and medium to work in. Wonder Woman is a fantasy character created by magic. And thats all you need to justify the "impossible" or impratical. Are there people wondering how the witches in Harry Potter stay on their brooms while doing all those arial acrobatics? Or it is just magic?

For street level characters like Batman a little realism can work well, but Wonder Woman is not Batman, nor should she ever be. Let the nature of the characters drive the level of "reality".
 
This discussion reminds me of the outfit Wonder Woman had in an episode of the 70s TV show...

wonderwoman-cap11.jpg


wonderwoman-cap10.jpg


Roy Rogers was the guest star and I read that he wanted Lynda Carter to wear something other than the usual costume because he felt that a "bathing suit" was inappropriate.
 
If your focus is on the possibility of her boobs flying out of her top rather than the words coming out of her mouth, then I think as a writer you've picked the wrong character to work on and medium to work in.

That's a false dichotomy. There are plenty of readers out there who want to take her words and her personality seriously, but find her implausible costume to be an unwelcome distraction.


Wonder Woman is a fantasy character created by magic. And thats all you need to justify the "impossible" or impratical. Are there people wondering how the witches in Harry Potter stay on their brooms while doing all those arial acrobatics? Or it is just magic?

For street level characters like Batman a little realism can work well, but Wonder Woman is not Batman, nor should she ever be. Let the nature of the characters drive the level of "reality".

Richard Matheson's rule for writing fantasy is to keep the impossibilities to a bare minimum: include one impossible element and treat everything around it as realistically as possible. Again, it comes down to the willing suspension of disbelief. The less disbelief you require your audience to suspend about everyday things like clothes staying on, the more willing they'll be to suspend disbelief about the one really big impossibility in the story. And the more you treat that impossibility in a realistic manner, the easier it will be for the audience to believe that it makes sense after all.
 
So, predictably, the responses are:

1) I like it! WW has needed a makeover for ages!

2) It's horrible! You can't change WW! She's an icon!

3) Meh. She needs a makeover, but not this one.

Gotta wonder how many of the people weighing in at yahoo and cnn and salon, etcetera, actually read comics anyway?

The answer is, NONE! The same goes for the feminists at most of the web sites and blogs. NONE of them read Wonder Woman-they just pay lip service to her, and then they do a bullcrit (bullshit criticism) as if they know or care about her. Her image/character/lovelife is something most of them have a great opinion about even though none of them read or have really read the book in a while. It was all talked about here in this article:

Unfortunately, being the female vanguard of the DC Comics publishing line carries a lot of sexual-political baggage that other characters don't have. Like outstanding females in many other prominent roles in our society, Wonder Woman can't just behave like a normal person: she has to represent women as a whole. Given that women as a whole are no more unified than men are as a whole, it is an impossible role. While Batman and Superman have some limitations as characters (i.e. no mention of their religion or politics), in the case of Wonder Woman the rules are quite binding and restrictive. (Oh, that reminds me: no bondage portrayals, either.)

Wonder Woman can't ever talk about wanting a man or it would offend the hard-left feminists who insist you don't need a man to be complete. She can't be afraid of anything, or need saving by a man, or rely on a man for emotional support. Wonder Woman can't cry…ever, even in situations where men would be crying…or it makes her "weak". Wonder Woman can't ever contemplate having a baby for fear of "Oh, so women are just baby-making machines, eh?" responses. And if Wonder Woman eschews a normal home life in order to maintain her role as an Amazonian representative, advocating women's issues and pacificism, the book can't get too controversial for fear of jeopardizing her commercial value. (Why do you think DC only allows second-tier characters like Green Arrow to get political? It's because DC Comics would still continue publication if Green Arrow had to be jettisoned.)

All of these considerations must be weighed when writing Wonder Woman. It matters not that the number of National Organization of Women members buying Wonder Woman can't be much higher than zero. Wonder Woman is, was and shall always be a mediocre book that's only read by hardcore fans, 13-year-old-girls and T&A afficianadoes. BUT…if Wonder Woman was ever allowed to develop as a person in a way that displeased feminists, there would be an outcry in the media before you could say, "I'm Barbie and math class is tough!"

The effect of such a "scandal" would probably be good for Wonder Woman as a book. As I said, you can't boycott something you weren't buying anyway. The current fans are not going to drop it just because of some group that was offended by it. And many people, in hearing that the Wonder Woman comic book is being decried for doing something controversial, would (A) express surprise that there is a Wonder Woman comic book being published and (B) possibly pick up an issue out of curiosity the next time they're at the grocery store or book store, assuming it was possible to find comic books there. However, Warner Brothers would balk at having their marketable character's reputation sullied by the outraged groups, even while DC Comics' response was "bad publicity is better than no publicity."

15 Years Without A Man:
Is Wonder Woman Gay?
Paradise Island? Or Isle of Lesbos?


THIS above-mentioned reason is why people hate any change in Wonder Woman, including the costume.

You know what's even funnier than the idea of feminists who don't read Wonder Woman writing critiques of Wonder Woman? Men who don't know anything about feminists writing critiques of feminist critiques of Wonder Woman.

People don't hate change in Wonder Woman because she's a victim of sexual politics - comics fanboys just hate change.

PS - I'm a member of NOW, I marched for the ERA when I was 8, I'm a feminist and I've read Wonder Woman all my life. I've been begging for changes in the character for years. The Perez reboot was great, but it was 30 years ago, and particularly since Kingdom Come, Wonder Woman's character has accumulated a number of very effective changes in various stories which need to be incorporated into her mythos in an integrated way. Which means it's time to redo the origin - something that happens to iconic characters regularly over time if they are to stay iconic. Otherwise King Arthur would still be a lone giant killer rather than the King of Camelot who pulled a sword from a stone and has an unfaithful best friend and wife (aspects of the mythos that weren't incorporated until, oh, about 400 years after his stories were first told), and Robin Hood would be a cutthroat ex-yeoman, rather than an unfairly accused nobleman who steals from the rich to give to the poor (aspects of his mythos that weren't incorporated until about 300 years after his original tales were sung).

Mythic heores have to change to keep up with the times. Their flexibility is the very key to their survival. Keeping a hero the same will only ensure that they eventually appeal to a tiny set of traditionalists. And as painful as it may be for some, the truth is the general attitude towards superpowered fictional characters is changing away from colorful leotards and star spangled panties.
 
Re: Hot off the Presses, Wonder Woman's New Lookk!

Meh. Why did he bother? JMS doesn't get superheroes. He should go back to television.
 
Sorry, I just don't care for the shoulder pads. And I like the lack of high boots in the Lee design; it makes her legs look longer because there's an unbroken stretch of color from waist to heel. And the featureless, wide gold trim on the boots in this proposed redesign clashes with the intricate detailing on the belt.
Fair enough. I would lean toward getting rid of all the ornate details throughout before adding more to the boots, though the trim could probably be thinner. The simpler the design, the more iconic and long-lasting. Lee is an immense talent, but his design suffers due to trying to look too cool and modern with all the techy looking lines everywhere on the jacket and shirt and pants, the intricate filigree everywhere, which are all going to just make it look more dated, faster. To each their own though, obviously my tweaks are just for myself since no one is busting down my door to redesign a classic superhero any time soon.
 
If your focus is on the possibility of her boobs flying out of her top rather than the words coming out of her mouth, then I think as a writer you've picked the wrong character to work on and medium to work in.

That's a false dichotomy. There are plenty of readers out there who want to take her words and her personality seriously, but find her implausible costume to be an unwelcome distraction.[/
I'm thinking those readers might not be "right" for reading superhero comics. You're reading about a statue brought to life by magic who fights gods and wer-cheetahs and your spending time wondering why the living statue's boobs don't pop out? Seriously, what wrong with that picture?


Wonder Woman is a fantasy character created by magic. And thats all you need to justify the "impossible" or impratical. Are there people wondering how the witches in Harry Potter stay on their brooms while doing all those arial acrobatics? Or it is just magic?

For street level characters like Batman a little realism can work well, but Wonder Woman is not Batman, nor should she ever be. Let the nature of the characters drive the level of "reality".

Richard Matheson's rule for writing fantasy is to keep the impossibilities to a bare minimum: include one impossible element and treat everything around it as realistically as possible. Again, it comes down to the willing suspension of disbelief. The less disbelief you require your audience to suspend about everyday things like clothes staying on, the more willing they'll be to suspend disbelief about the one really big impossibility in the story. And the more you treat that impossibility in a realistic manner, the easier it will be for the audience to believe that it makes sense after all.

So lets get Batman to drop the cape and cowl. How practical and real are those for a guy swinging on rooftops, using martial arts and driving a car?
Hell lets drop the costumes all together. Jumpsuits, leather jackets and body armor for everybody.
 
I don't understand all the objections I'm reading about something being "dated" or "out of style" or "so '80s." I just can't grasp the notion that the aesthetic quality of a design is time-dependent. If something looked good 20 years ago, why wouldn't it still look good today, or 20 years from now? The idea of something being "out of style" has nothing to do with aesthetics; it's purely about conformity, fashion as a standard for social inclusion and exclusion. I mean, heck, a rainbow or a flower looks as good today as it did a thousand years ago. People still think the paintings of Michelangelo and Van Gogh look good centuries after the fact. So why should a good piece of clothing design cease to be good after a measly ten or twenty years?

And Nerys Myk, your objections are spurious and closed-minded so there's no point trying to reason with you any further. What the hell gives you the right to decide what attitudes and tastes comics readers should be allowed to have? Just because you're not willing to listen to another point of view seriously enough to consider it fairly, that doesn't make it illegitimate.
 
Mythic heores have to change to keep up with the times. Their flexibility is the very key to their survival. Keeping a hero the same will only ensure that they eventually appeal to a tiny set of traditionalists. And as painful as it may be for some, the truth is the general attitude towards superpowered fictional characters is changing away from colorful leotards and star spangled panties.

I don't buy it. Superman, Batman, GA Flash, GA Green Lantern, Captain America, Captain Marvel and a host of other characters have looked essentially the same for 70 years, as have most of the Marvels for 45 years, and they're as popular as they every were. Further, people like the original mythologies of the characters; that's why they keep getting re-set.
I've got $20 American that says WW will be back in short pants within 4 years.
 
And Nerys Myk, your objections are spurious and closed-minded so there's no point trying to reason with you any further. What the hell gives you the right to decide what attitudes and tastes comics readers should be allowed to have? Just because you're not willing to listen to another point of view seriously enough to consider it fairly, that doesn't make it illegitimate.
How am I being close minded? If it was better design I'd probably be more supportive. If these "attitudes" made sense or were consistent I'd give them more consideration. I'm not saying all comics readers should mirror my opinions but lets have some perspective.
 
Mythic heores have to change to keep up with the times. Their flexibility is the very key to their survival. Keeping a hero the same will only ensure that they eventually appeal to a tiny set of traditionalists. And as painful as it may be for some, the truth is the general attitude towards superpowered fictional characters is changing away from colorful leotards and star spangled panties.

I don't buy it. Superman, Batman, GA Flash, GA Green Lantern, Captain America, Captain Marvel and a host of other characters have looked essentially the same for 70 years, as have most of the Marvels for 45 years, and they're as popular as they every were.

No, they're not. Superman comics used to sell on average around 750,000 copies an issue (Captain Marvel sold on average 1.4 million!) Want to take a look at the sales figures for January of 2010? Supes can't break 50,000 copies. And don't give me movies - the public will pile into the cinema every summer for anything from War of the Worlds to Tranformers 2 - so Batman or Spider-Man doing big bucks at the box office has much less to do with superheroes than it does with big budget action blockbusters. What's the most popular version of Superman these days? That's right, non-costumed, angsty teen love contemporary update Smallville.
 
How am I being close minded?

By talking about an interest in realism as if it were something deserving of mockery. That's intensely obnoxious, insulting, and intolerant. You have no right to ridicule people for not having the exact same priorities as you, let alone to suggest that they don't even belong in your fandom. "Not 'right' for superhero comics?" How dare you?
 
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