Spoilers Wonder Woman - Grading & Discussion

[DigificWriter]

And what makes Carol Danvers "unique"?

She's essentially Marvel's version of Supergirl and Wonder Woman, and the only character in their pantheon who fits that mold.

Black Widow is just a foreign "super-spy" with extraordinary powers, and Marvel covered that 'niche' with several other characters.

 

[Nerys Myk]

She's essentially Marvel's version of Supergirl and Wonder Woman, and the only character in their pantheon who fits that mold.

So she's unique because she's like another company's characters?

 

[Gov Kodos]

Movie audiences don't care about nerd war recognition.

 

[DigificWriter]

Marvel doesn't exactly have a "go-to" female superhero the way that DC does, but Carol comes the closest, and her backstory and power set set her further apart because no other 'mainstream'* heroes in the company's pantheon share her skill set or fill her particular role as as a literal "superwoman".

* She is very much a mainstream hero, even if she's not immediately recognizable to the same degree as characters like Spider-Man, Iron Man, and Thor

 

[LJones41]

Because there's nothing about her that makes her unique.

Really? The fact that she started out as a highly trained assassin and became one of SHIELD's top agents make her unique in my eyes. And she is an uber-trained martial artist without the benefit of a super soldier serum. But I guess in the eyes of many, a man can have special skills, but no powers and be unique (Batman, Iron Man, the Falcon, etc.). But a highly skilled woman with no special powers isn't.

 

[UssGlenn]

I'm looking forward to the Captain Marvel movie. I'm interested to see what they do with her costume. I've been underwhelmed with her current red gold and blue. While I realize that they moved away from her old Ms. Marvel costume because it was too sexy, I think they took a step backwards in terms of iconography. The lightning bolt on black with the red sash is a great design.

 

[DigificWriter]

At the time he debuted, Iron Man was one-of-a-kind; the same cannot be said of Black Widow.

 

[Nerys Myk]

At the time he debuted, Iron Man was one-of-a-kind; the same cannot be said of Black Widow.

Guy in a suit of armor?

 

[DigificWriter]

Marvel Comics didn't have a character like Iron Man prior to his debut, and neither did DC.

When Black Widow debuted, Marvel had already introduced Nick Fury and S.H.I.E.L.D., so she was just one more "super-spy" character to add to their catalog.

 

[Captaindemotion]

The Winter Soldier showed that you can do a really good Bourne/24 style political/spy thriller in the MCU. Presumably a BW movie would be in the same vein. ScarJo is certainly charismatic enough to lead such a film.

For me anyway, TWS worked both as a superhero movie and a spy movie that happened to take place in a superheroic universe. I'm not sure that a film set in that universe but top-lined by a non-superhero will necessarily be distinctive enough to stand out from a generic spy/political thriller. However, as with anything else, it's in the execution.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Marvel Comics didn't have a character like Iron Man prior to his debut, and neither did DC.

It was 1963, neither company, but especially Marvel, had a deep bench.
Black Widow actually debuted before SHIELD.

 

[Thestral]

There's nothing unique about Thor. He's literally a ripoff from Norse mythology.

There's nothing unique about the Hulk. He's Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

Doesn't seem to be a problem for anybody though.

Natasha is absolutely more mainstream than Carol, if only because of the movies. "Marvel's version of Supergirl or Wonder Woman" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of uniqueness compared to "foreign super-spy turned good," which she's the premier example of. Big-budget super-spy movies are definitely a thing over the last decade plus between Bourne and Mission Impossible and Salt and...

 

[Captaindemotion]

As far as uniqueness goes, the Bourne Identity, a film about an amnesiac assassin/spy, was a smash hit a few years after The Long Kiss Goodnight, a film about an amnesiac assassin/spy failed to set the world on fire (despite being pretty much as good, IMHO). I don't think it's necessary for a film to succeed, either artistically or financially.

 

[Dream]

Marvel doesn't exactly have a "go-to" female superhero the way that DC does, but Carol comes the closest, and her backstory and power set set her further apart because no other 'mainstream'* heroes in the company's pantheon share her skill set or fill her particular role as as a literal "superwoman".

Marvel Studios is basically screwed when it comes having the most famous female superheroes in their movies because FOX holds all the movie rights to the more popular X-men females and the Invisible Woman. Since Marvel can't use those characters, Captain Marvel is the only female of note that they have so they are giving her a solo movie.

Luckily DC doesn't have that problem because WB owns all the DC character rights, and they can use whatever characters they wish.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I could understand that opinion before the creation of the MCU. But ever since Scarlett Johansson took over the role and I learned about the character's backstory, I just can't accept that opinion anymore. Is the Black Widow unworthy of a solo film because she has no powers?

This is the MCU, which is (roughly) 99% about superpowered and/or characters with enhanced abilities or assets. That's what audiences want to see: the larger than life come alive--with a coherent, serious story (they have mixed results on that last point).

When you have an actress like Johansson in the role and a back story like that, who cares? If characters like the Wolverine and Ms. Marvel could develop from supporting to lead characters, why not the Black Widow?

Where movies are concerned, Wolverine was a wildly popular character for twenty-plus years before the first X-Men movie (2000), so his being prominently featured and/or in a lead character role was a studio no-brainer & expected by audiences. The lead status already existed for the character. That's not the case with Black Widow, who has been an arguably B-list character (C-list to some) for most of her published life, and only became a higher profile character in the films.

I do find it telling that for all of Marvel (comics) self-aggrandizing about how progressive they were, that they have not created or dedicated enough developmental time into a female character--enough to reach the level of Wonder Woman. Some Marvel fans have argued that WW's advantage was time (length of publication history), yet that idea holds no water when endless numbers of characters had been created long after WW, but managed to become major, or in some cases, genre icons. It seems Marvel paid more lip service to female characters than anything else, hence the reason some feel Black Widow is not a movie headliner.

Kevin Feige has said there will be a Black Widow film, but I can imagine such a film will be overflowing with so many superheroes (and Easter eggs) that some might question if its a true BW film in the way some jokingly refer to Captain America - Civil War as Avengers 3.

 

[dahj]

The only MCU character that was somewhat known to the general public prior to MCU being a thing is Hulk, and his solo movie did the worst of them all. So all this "Marvel doesn't have a popular female character" is empty talk. Where there's will there's a way, but there obviously was no will in the MCU, because for a long time they have made little to no effort to stray away from the straight white male protagonist.

Compare that to DCEU, which started later, but where we already have Wonder Woman, Suicide Squad which was fronted by a black man and a woman (with the rest of the cast being even more diverse), and even Aquaman and the Flash, who are in the comics traditionally depicted as blonde white dudes, were cast as a Native Hawaiian and a Jewish queer guy...

I really hope that Black Panther and Captain Marvel turn out great and do well, but both are long overdue, and for all that Kevin Feige now talks about how "it doesn't matter if the movie is good", he just sounds like a giant hypocrite, because it's obvious the company policy was not to test that theory out.

 

[Nerys Myk]

IMO. two of the better MCU films in the last few years were GotG annd Ant-Man, which featured B or C list characters who the general public probably had less than zero knowledge of. If you do it right any character can be a success.

 

[LJones41]

That's not the case with Black Widow, who has been an arguably B-list character (C-list to some) for most of her published life, and only became a higher profile character in the films.

When the B-list character has a fascinating back story over which a writer can happily indulge and is portrayed by an A-list actress, this argument doesn't really hold up for me. I think Marvel lost its chance.

 

[JD]

Neither was Wolverine or Carol Danvers.

As someone who has liked the character of Carol Danvers for years, and finds Kamala Khan extremely irritating, I'm glad they're going with Carol. She's a great character, and I'm sure the MCU will use her well. Plus, there will be plenty of opportunities to use the current Ms. Marvel. Heck, Ms. Marvel can't really exist in the MCU in the way she does in the comics without Carol Danvers to inspire her, so once Captain Marvel's movie comes out it will be easy to introduce Kamala Khan and if the MCU really wanted they could even set up a teacher/student think between them (although for some reason it feels to me like Kamala is more likely to appear in one of the TV projects then the movies).

I haven't read any of her comics yet, but from I know of Kamala, she does strike me as a character would probably be a better fit for TV. It seems like most of her stories I've heard about are smaller scale, and character driven, not the kind of huge epic scale stories Marvel seems to want for their movies,

Marvel doesn't exactly have a "go-to" female superhero the way that DC does, but Carol comes the closest, and her backstory and power set set her further apart because no other 'mainstream'* heroes in the company's pantheon share her skill set or fill her particular role as as a literal "superwoman".

* She is very much a mainstream hero, even if she's not immediately recognizable to the same degree as characters like Spider-Man, Iron Man, and Thor

The thing to keep in mind here, is that Iron Man and Thor weren't that well known before their movies, so they really weren't in that different of a place from Capt. Marvel right now.

The only MCU character that was somewhat known to the general public prior to MCU being a thing is Hulk, and his solo movie did the worst of them all. So all this "Marvel doesn't have a popular female character" is empty talk. Where there's will there's a way, but there obviously was no will in the MCU, because for a long time they have made little to no effort to stray away from the straight white male protagonist.

Compare that to DCEU, which started later, but where we already have Wonder Woman, Suicide Squad which was fronted by a black man and a woman (with the rest of the cast being even more diverse), and even Aquaman and the Flash, who are in the comics traditionally depicted as blonde white dudes, were cast as a Native Hawaiian and a Jewish queer guy...

I really hope that Black Panther and Captain Marvel turn out great and do well, but both are long overdue, and for all that Kevin Feige now talks about how "it doesn't matter if the movie is good", he just sounds like a giant hypocrite, because it's obvious the company policy was not to test that theory out.

Yeah, the lack of diversity has probably been the MCU's one biggest misstep so far. It's nice to see them finally diversifying their leads, but there really is no reason they couldn't have done it sooner.

 

[Reverend]

The only (and I stress "only") problem I have with Kamala being part of the MCU just yet is the plot logistics of her name. That is in the comics she chose the name because she idolised Carol Danvers, who right now is still several years from making her debut.

After 'Infinity War' & the Captain Marvel standalone

I haven't read any of her comics yet, but from I know of Kamala, she does strike me as a character would probably be a better fit for TV. It seems like most of her stories I've heard about are smaller scale, and character driven, not the kind of huge epic scale stories Marvel seems to want for their movies,

Oh I don't know, it could be done as a family drama-comedy. Like Ant-Man but with less burglary. Or rather 'Breakfast Club' with Inhumans. There's no rule that says *every* superhero movie needs to have a Skybeam-McSwirly-Death-Cloud in the third act (though I wish someone would tell DC that...)

Plus, honestly I think a TV budget would struggle to really show off her power set on a weekly basis. I mean her abilities are basically half-way between Ant-Man and Mr. Fantastic. A good TV effect house could probably do it from a technical standpoint, but for the two or three dozen shots needed per episode? It just doesn't seem financially viable to me.