Spoilers Wonder Woman - Grading & Discussion
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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I hadn't hear about the ad buy, but it tracks with how much I saw for it before the film came out. We go to the cinema most weeks and saw any trailer for it once (and I'd have thought it was a natural for some of the films we went to see) and once, maybe twice on tv.
Here's hoping.
Just saw it today and loved it! 
Great acting and fighting by Gadot, great support cast and above all great story and message.
I'm not slogging through 25 pages of this topic so i won't repeat details i liked that have probably been said already but i still would like to pick up on the movie politics of it all (which has most likely been discussed too
)
Wonder Woman is the first female superhero standalone movie of the new Superhero movie era and ironically enough it's a DC character and not Marvel and for once DC has the leg up over Marvel in terms of success.. a smash hit at the box office and overwhelming positive reviews all across the board and they did it by finally showing guts and doing something "new".
Now Marvel has their share of female heroes too and has top cast them too.. Black Widow/Scarlet Johannsen, Agent Hill/Cobie Smulders, Peggy Carter/Hayley Atwell etc. but with the exception of Peggy Carter none of them were the lead (and even then only in two TV seasons). While they all could hold their own with the plethora of Testosterone filled Superguys often enough they also were there for tits and ass.. (just recently rewatched Winter Soldier and when they board the ship in the beginning Black Widow takes out a few bad guys and ends the scene walking away with the camera pointed straight at her ass
).
Fans have been clamoring for years to get Black Widow her own movie to no avail and only after a dozen movies will we see a female lead in the upcoming Ms. Marvel movie but DC was quicker this time.
Watching Wonder Woman i was very pleasantly suprised that they resisted to focus on her female body for a second.. sure her WW costume shows much leg and a little bit of cleavage but at no time did i feel this become the focus of the scene.. it was just there the same as if you would walk down a busy street in summer and see lightly clothed women, at some point you just stop looking and it becomes normal. Gal Gadot sure is a very attractive woman but they never explicitly used this in the movie to their credit.
I recently saw a cast interview where the director talked about the issue.. paraphased she said that it's important to have a female superhero lead but the true victory will be when it becomes a non-issue and not worthy mentioning and i couldn't agree more.
So hats off to DC for finally having their deserved success in the superhero genre.. the other movies sure did their share at the box office but were mostly received with a mixed reception and i hope they do learn from it. Deadpool and Logan showed that R rated can still be a very successful movie at the box office, Wonder Woman has proved that a female lead can helm a blockbuster movie (who knew that good casting and a good story can be so well received?) so i really, really hope that some studio CEOs retain their balls or grow some and continue down this line.
Justice League is the next benchmark.. no one knows how it will turn out but people will still see it in droves. I for one will be looking forward to Wonder Woman 2, hopefully done by the same crew.
Great acting and fighting by Gadot, great support cast and above all great story and message.
I'm not slogging through 25 pages of this topic so i won't repeat details i liked that have probably been said already but i still would like to pick up on the movie politics of it all (which has most likely been discussed too
)Wonder Woman is the first female superhero standalone movie of the new Superhero movie era and ironically enough it's a DC character and not Marvel and for once DC has the leg up over Marvel in terms of success.. a smash hit at the box office and overwhelming positive reviews all across the board and they did it by finally showing guts and doing something "new".
Now Marvel has their share of female heroes too and has top cast them too.. Black Widow/Scarlet Johannsen, Agent Hill/Cobie Smulders, Peggy Carter/Hayley Atwell etc. but with the exception of Peggy Carter none of them were the lead (and even then only in two TV seasons). While they all could hold their own with the plethora of Testosterone filled Superguys often enough they also were there for tits and ass.. (just recently rewatched Winter Soldier and when they board the ship in the beginning Black Widow takes out a few bad guys and ends the scene walking away with the camera pointed straight at her ass
).Fans have been clamoring for years to get Black Widow her own movie to no avail and only after a dozen movies will we see a female lead in the upcoming Ms. Marvel movie but DC was quicker this time.
Watching Wonder Woman i was very pleasantly suprised that they resisted to focus on her female body for a second.. sure her WW costume shows much leg and a little bit of cleavage but at no time did i feel this become the focus of the scene.. it was just there the same as if you would walk down a busy street in summer and see lightly clothed women, at some point you just stop looking and it becomes normal. Gal Gadot sure is a very attractive woman but they never explicitly used this in the movie to their credit.
I recently saw a cast interview where the director talked about the issue.. paraphased she said that it's important to have a female superhero lead but the true victory will be when it becomes a non-issue and not worthy mentioning and i couldn't agree more.
So hats off to DC for finally having their deserved success in the superhero genre.. the other movies sure did their share at the box office but were mostly received with a mixed reception and i hope they do learn from it. Deadpool and Logan showed that R rated can still be a very successful movie at the box office, Wonder Woman has proved that a female lead can helm a blockbuster movie (who knew that good casting and a good story can be so well received?) so i really, really hope that some studio CEOs retain their balls or grow some and continue down this line.
Justice League is the next benchmark.. no one knows how it will turn out but people will still see it in droves. I for one will be looking forward to Wonder Woman 2, hopefully done by the same crew.
Jessica Jones is a lead. Same could be said for Quake.
Did the naked Steve Trevor scenes make you roll your eyes?While they all could hold their own with the plethora of Testosterone filled Superguys often enough they also were there for tits and ass.. (just recently rewatched Winter Soldier and when they board the ship in the beginning Black Widow takes out a few bad guys and ends the scene walking away with the camera pointed straight at her ass
I'm one of the biggest MCU fans on these boards, and I can honestly say that I've never really had the desire to see, or saw the need for, a Black Widow movie. What niche would it fill in the Marvel story-scape besides giving us a female led-movie for the sake of giving us a female-led movie? Her abilities don't lend themselves big-budget, FX-heavy blockbusters (The same reason Marvel Studios let Marvel Television have Daredevil). Agents of SHIELD already has the spy-story niche covered.
And it's not as if the character has been neglected. There has been forward momentum on her personal arc in her every appearance.
Don't get me wrong. A good movie could be crafted around Natasha, I just fail to see what it would bring into the larger picture.
On the other hand, by bringing in Captain (
)Marvel as their first female-led movie, they will be introducing audiences to possibly the most powerful character in the entire MCU. If they keep her power levels consistent with the comics, she should be able to go toe-to-toe with the Hulk.For which Kevin Feige was grateful...
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WB was fortunate to have a character with the status of Wonder Woman to work with. Marvel's biggest female names (Storm, Phoenix, Invisible Woman) tend to be, A- associated with the teams they're on they're on rather than their solo adventures, and B- Owned by another studio.
There is always Black Widow, but I've already expressed my opinion on that idea, and frankly, she's never really been a solo hero either.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that WB had an immediate, obvious option for a female super-hero movie. Marvel didn't have that and sadly had to build up their own credibility first.
There is always Black Widow, but I've already expressed my opinion on that idea, and frankly, she's never really been a solo hero either.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that WB had an immediate, obvious option for a female super-hero movie. Marvel didn't have that and sadly had to build up their own credibility first.
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Jessica Jones is TV.. a great show played well by the actress but it's not a 100+ million blockbuster movie where CEO's tend to be more conservative, meaning male A listers as the lead with maybe a female A lister as a co-lead (exceptions are there, e.g. Jennifer Lawrence but the Superhero genre was the exception until now).
And yes, i rolled my eyes at the cheap laugh when they insinuated her being curious about "that" and it turns out to be a watch. That was a cheap teenager level joke.
Black Widow is a great character and Johannsen a very good actress so given the right material it could have been made but Marvel schedule apparently doesn't allow for side projects even if many fans would like to see it.
Agents of SHIELD is not really a spy show per see, more of a pulpy sci-fi show that happens to star spies.
A Black Widow movie would be more in the vein of 'The Borne Identity', 'Salt' and 'Hanna'. While yes, both technically involve sneaky people with the guns and the kicking and the disguises, the tone and content is entirely distinct.
I like Scarlett Johansson, but the character of Natasha isn't and never was 'starring role' material, and trying to make her such would be stretching things way too thinly.
The only reason people 'glommed on' to the idea of a solo movie for her is because she was the only female member of the Avengers and is still the most prominently featured.
The only reason people 'glommed on' to the idea of a solo movie for her is because she was the only female member of the Avengers and is still the most prominently featured.
Neither was Wolverine or Carol Danvers.
I disagree. Carol Danvers is essentially Marvel's answer to Wonder Woman and Supergirl, and Logan was given more than enough depth as an ensemble character to absolutely warrant putting the focus solely on him.
Danvers started out as a supporting character in B-level title. She's gone through various revamps, rebrandings renumberings, relaunches and retcons. Her rise to the the level of "Marvel's Premier Super-Heroine" has been full of twists and turns and ups and downs.
Wolverine was close to being axed from the X-Men early on. Claremont and Cockrum had little interest in the character. John Byrne more or less saved him and made him into the breakout character.
Point is, neither one was created to be a lead, they were developed into leads.
I would *love* a well-made movie adaptation of the current run of Ms. Marvel, which is Kamala Khan, a 16-year old Muslim girl with Pakistani heritage. Her quirky and geeky character would be a great counterpoint to the often more mature male superheroes, plus having a Muslim superhero would be a first. It's a shame they chose to bring the more obvious and boring All American White Girl blonde Carol Danvers to the movie screen. 
As someone who has liked the character of Carol Danvers for years, and finds Kamala Khan extremely irritating, I'm glad they're going with Carol. She's a great character, and I'm sure the MCU will use her well. Plus, there will be plenty of opportunities to use the current Ms. Marvel. Heck, Ms. Marvel can't really exist in the MCU in the way she does in the comics without Carol Danvers to inspire her, so once Captain Marvel's movie comes out it will be easy to introduce Kamala Khan and if the MCU really wanted they could even set up a teacher/student think between them (although for some reason it feels to me like Kamala is more likely to appear in one of the TV projects then the movies).
I could understand that opinion before the creation of the MCU. But ever since Scarlett Johansson took over the role and I learned about the character's backstory, I just can't accept that opinion anymore. Is the Black Widow unworthy of a solo film because she has no powers? Or a mechanical suit? When you have an actress like Johansson in the role and a back story like that, who cares? If characters like the Wolverine and Ms. Marvel could develop from supporting to lead characters, why not the Black Widow? But I cannot help but wonder if it's now too late.
Because there's nothing about her that makes her unique.
And what makes Carol Danvers "unique"? They've been looking for her "uniqueness" for decades. Someday something will stick.
A character doesn't have to be "unique" to be good. Black Widow is a great character in the comics, even if she's not the most original. She's also a pretty good character in the MCU. Honestly, they could do a great BW movie if they felt like it. At this point it feels a bit too late though, with most of the Phase One Avengers probably taking a back seat after Infinity War stuff.
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