It would be one thing if only one person saw the scene that way, but even back when they showed the trailer people were already discussing that line.
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Spoilers Wonder Woman - Grading & Discussion
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It would be one thing if only one person saw the scene that way, but even back when they showed the trailer people were already discussing that line.
Pa Kent was position on Clark using his powers was "he doesn't know". He wants to protect his son, but at the same he knows his son possesses incredible powers. His first inclination was to keep Clark's alien nature and abilities a secret. Rather than motivate his Clark to put on a brightly colored costume and go help people. If the conversation Clark and Jonathan had was in an X-Men movie, nobody would question or debate it. Because we know what happens to people who are different or have "freakish" powers, when they're exposed to the general public.
A big theme in MOS is trust and faith. In the tornado scene, Clark was ready to jump into action, but his father was willing to make the sacrifice to keep Clark's secret. Because the world wasn't ready to see what he could do. Clark trusted his dad's judgement and by extension, put faith in his decision. Since they were just having that conversation in the car. However, Clark kept helping people long after his dad died and before he was given the suit. When he finally made his debut, it was at the beginning of a world wide crisis. He trusted humanity and with convincing (the Smallville fight), the military at least, began to trust in him.
While the death of a parent in comic IPs is always tragic (Meredith Quill, Jack Murdock, Ben Parker, Thomas and Martha Wayne, Howard and Maria Stark), someone made this gif set of Clark's decision to not rescue his dad and Barry's decision to not save his mom.
http://dailydcheroes.tumblr.com/post/158415818418/man-of-steel-2013-the-flash-2014
It really draws into focus what the people of MOS were trying to accomplish. Clark is defined by his decisions and the trust he puts in other people (Ghost Jor, Jonathan, Martha, Lois, Bruce, General Swanwick), while Barry is defined by his tragedy and makes his decisions to try to change the outcomes in his favor (Nora dying, Henry dying, Iris dying, Flashpoint, etc). Barry ultimately ends up learning the same lesson over and over, while Supes wrestles with the things he can't change (death all around him and the world constantly needing rescuing).
With great power, comes great responsibility. Supes does the best he can, but that's not always good enough.
Pa Kent shouldn't have said that. The better answer may have been "Find a better way."
I've often puzzled why superheroes need the tragic background to become great. Being raised by good parents would encourage you to do good. It may have something to do with the Holocaust.
Snyder needs to lighten up. Given recent personal events, it may be hard. Also it needs to stop being such a god-epic thing, while also not being four-colour spectacular.
Whedon could change the complexion of the picture, literally. All he has to say is lift the colour palette (note: palate is what's taste). And selective reshoots would be like the icing on the cake, changing the quality of the finished article. Will he do that? Doubtful, and it may not be within his remit, but sure.
I've often puzzled why superheroes need the tragic background to become great. Being raised by good parents would encourage you to do good. It may have something to do with the Holocaust.
Snyder needs to lighten up. Given recent personal events, it may be hard. Also it needs to stop being such a god-epic thing, while also not being four-colour spectacular.
Whedon could change the complexion of the picture, literally. All he has to say is lift the colour palette (note: palate is what's taste). And selective reshoots would be like the icing on the cake, changing the quality of the finished article. Will he do that? Doubtful, and it may not be within his remit, but sure.
A misinterpretation isn't any less of a misinterpretation just because it takes root in the wider public consciousness, and it's made clear by subsequent portions of both Man of Steel and Batman v Superman exactly what Jonathan Kent truly meant and qas trying to convey in that specific moment, rendering any read of said conversation as conveying ambivalence or lack of selflessness on Jonathan's part as a misinterpretation.
In approximately 9,452 other iterations Pa Kent gives sage, clear and correct advice. It's uncanny how a farmer, however nice and "salt of the earth", NEVER expresses doubt, let alone erroneous, thinking--you know, like a regular human being. In those same 9,452 iterations, Superman is the wholesome Boy Scout.
Snyder comes along and reimagines the Superman story within a present day context WITHOUT "salt of the earth" Pa and Boy Scout Superman--oh the horror.
I get people were disappointed--happens a lot when expectations are not met. But that doesn't make the effort to challenge expectations illegitimate. And I'd rather see, every once in a while, a flawed attempt at something different than another perfect replica of the same thing over and over. I have enjoyed every iteration of Superman I've experienced in the last 45 years--not all equally, but each in some fashion. Man of Steel, so far, is my favourite--in large part because Pa is flawed and doesn't have the right answer at his fingertips AND because the degree of ambiguity in the public reaction to Superman, in MoS and BvS, is very much what it would be like if such a being was revealed to the world today.
Snyder comes along and reimagines the Superman story within a present day context WITHOUT "salt of the earth" Pa and Boy Scout Superman--oh the horror.
I get people were disappointed--happens a lot when expectations are not met. But that doesn't make the effort to challenge expectations illegitimate. And I'd rather see, every once in a while, a flawed attempt at something different than another perfect replica of the same thing over and over. I have enjoyed every iteration of Superman I've experienced in the last 45 years--not all equally, but each in some fashion. Man of Steel, so far, is my favourite--in large part because Pa is flawed and doesn't have the right answer at his fingertips AND because the degree of ambiguity in the public reaction to Superman, in MoS and BvS, is very much what it would be like if such a being was revealed to the world today.
Snyder's interpretations of these characters differs from other interpretations ONLY in the fact that he took away the "perfectness" that has long been associated with them. They're still very much the characters as imagined and brought to life in other mediums and the comics; they're just made "real" and flawed instead of being held up as "false paragons" and "unreal" caricatures.
Thankfully, Wonder Woman wasn't directed by Snyder, because he was too busy with Justice League. I'm not a fan of his because MoS and BvS are hugely flawed.
We could have gotten a Michael Bay directs 5 Transformers movies in a row situation. But this superhero film universe WB is now building made that impossible. Even if you loved Snyder's DCEU films, seeing other directors' takes on DC superheroes should be appealing. I'm already looking forward to Aquaman and a possible Wonder Woman 2 more than Justice League.
We could have gotten a Michael Bay directs 5 Transformers movies in a row situation. But this superhero film universe WB is now building made that impossible. Even if you loved Snyder's DCEU films, seeing other directors' takes on DC superheroes should be appealing. I'm already looking forward to Aquaman and a possible Wonder Woman 2 more than Justice League.
Pretty much. MoS was the first time we saw Pa Kent depicted more believably and not like Ward Cleaver.
Hippolyta was trying her best to talk Diana out of going into Man's World to help save lives, even though she was just told that MILLIONS would die in a never ending war. Basically saying that Diana being safe was more important than millions of lives, including those of who knows how many children. She knew Ares was out there inflicting himself on the entire human race, she knew Diana was the means to end him, but kept trying to talk her out of it. I mean, she even spat out "they do not deserve you!!" implying that Diana didn't owe the world a thing and never did.
What she SHOULD have said was "make sure you're not seen so Ares doesn't notice you.....and here's the reason for that. You're Zeus' daughter and you're the weapon to kill Ares. Now go forth with my blessing and do the thing for which you were specifically created and save the world"
I mean, she could have thought "They do not deserve you!!", but she shouldn't have said it out loud.
Luckily both Clark and Diana ignored their parents and went out and saved people anyway, amirite?
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^ You just highlighted a point of hypocrisy that hadn't registered with me before now, and leads me to ask the question of why Jonathan gets tremendous flack for what people think he was saying while Hippolyta gets a free pass even though she was behaving far more selfishly than the Kents ever did since they were at least willing to let Clark make his own choices and grow whereas she probably would never have let Diana leave if the encroachment on Themyscira of Man's World and Diana's own stubbornness hadn't forced her to.
^ Although I agree with both you and Lensman, I think there is a bit more context to consider.
For Hippolyta, Diana was a Catch 22. Diana was the Godkiller, but only when she matured and reached full power.
Once she started displaying her power Ares would become aware of her.
Ares would not just attack. Ares would do all possible to turn Diana into a partner, perhaps even mate. Hippolyta was speaking from this perspective.
In fact, Diana almost did just that, after witnessing the most terrible side of humankind.
The one thing that ultimately turned it around was Steve Trevor. Hippolyta had no way of knowing Steve would display such honour, compassion, and love for Diana, enough to show Ares' offer for what it was.
So Hippolyta's feeling that Diana needed another few hundred years of maturity and perspective was understandable. Wrong, but understandable.
For Hippolyta, Diana was a Catch 22. Diana was the Godkiller, but only when she matured and reached full power.
Once she started displaying her power Ares would become aware of her.
Ares would not just attack. Ares would do all possible to turn Diana into a partner, perhaps even mate. Hippolyta was speaking from this perspective.
In fact, Diana almost did just that, after witnessing the most terrible side of humankind.
The one thing that ultimately turned it around was Steve Trevor. Hippolyta had no way of knowing Steve would display such honour, compassion, and love for Diana, enough to show Ares' offer for what it was.
So Hippolyta's feeling that Diana needed another few hundred years of maturity and perspective was understandable. Wrong, but understandable.
Ok. But given the length of time, degree of familiarity with the nature of Diana and Clark, respectively, Pa and Ma have far less information, as well as experience, to work with than Hippolyta in making decisions regarding the best path for their children. This is not a defence of the Kents' views, but an explanation (and explanation is NOT synonymous with advocacy--a point all too often ignored in society today).
In both of the instances in which Hippolyta ultimately relents her position, she's forced to do so out of stubbornness. First, she begrudgingly sanction's Antiope's training of Diana because it's clear that Antiope is going to do it one way or the other, so by offering Antiope her blessing to do something that she was going to do anyway, Hippolyta is avoiding the specter of conflict between herself and her sister, and in begrudgingly letting Diana leave, she's doing much the same thing, albeit with the motivation of largely assuaging her own conscience.
Ma Kent gets a lot of shit too, hence why I referenced her. What I see in both films are parents who both have some understanding of what looms in the world that can hurt their children and have a strong emotional desire to protect them.
When Clark is a child, the Kent's fear the government will take Clark away and do who knows what to him. Later they fear what his revealed existence will do to the world. See the movie "Contact" for something along the lines of what Pa Kent feared as far as how some people / governments might react to Clark.
Likewise Hippolyta fears Ares, and fears that he will destroy Diana. She never seems to express any concern for the outside world, only concern for Diana. Like the Kents, her emotional reaction is flawed, it's human and it's relatable.
It's been a few weeks since I've seen the film, but I don't recall Hippolyta fearing that Ares would turn Diana into a partner or a mate, so much as kill her.
Again, I don't recall Hippolyta saying or implying that Diana just needed more time and experience then she could go out and face Ares with her blessing.Ares is a god who predates the Amazons themselves, and who killed ALL of the other gods, even Zeus. Hippolyta fears for Diana's life, and is perfectly content for her to stay there in their hidey hole paradise, regardless of what that means for the outside world and the human race. In essence, she's acting like a parent who wants to protect her child.....just like the Kents.
While most people focused on the similarities with CA:FA, I thought WW and MoS had some basic similarities. Both heroes grow up in isolated communities. Both have parents who don't want them revealed to the world as they fear their children will be hurt or killed. Both heroes disregard their parents wishes due to their desire to help people. Both face and kill a nigh unstoppable foe bent on killing the human race. Same basic film with some variation. Diana the proud warrior is head strong and outspoken. Clark the country boy is determined and soft spoken. Diana comes from a perfect society that loves her, and has to learn the harsh truth of Man's World in a heartbeat. Almost giving up on it in a moment of despair. Clark though he has loving parents, lives in an imperfect society and has spent all his life observing the harsh truth of Man's World, but keeps on quietly helping people despite that.
The thing that separates Hippolyta from the Kents, ultimately, is that, even as they're trying to keep Clark safe, they're simultaneously making it clear that they're not trying to keep him from ultimately making his own choices. The same can not be of Hippolyta, who, if she had her druthers, would never have allowed Diana to become anything more than a pacifist member of Amazon society with no knowledge of Man's World or any ability or inclination to go out and fulfill her destiny as the "Godkiller".
IOW, Hippolyta is by far the worse parent, and yet she hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, been subjected to the kind of criticism that the Kents, who are imperfect people trying to be the best parents they possibly can in the face of fear and uncertainty as a result of their own knowledge of their son's potential and specialness, have even though she's an imperfect person trying to do everything she can to prevent her daughter from actually living a life or ever being in a position to fulfill her destiny simply because she fears what will happen. The Kents are trying to protect Clark while simultaneously bracing themselves for the possibility that Clark will choose to cast off/disregard that protection and making it clear that they will support him in that decision in spite of their fear, whereas Hippolyta is trying to protect Diana forever with no intention of ever having to face the potentiality of Diana ever discarding/casting aside or rebelling against said protection, and who only softens her stance when outside circumstances (be it Antiope's stubbornness or the encroachment of Man's World upon Themiscyra and Diana's stubbornness) force her to.
IOW, Hippolyta is by far the worse parent, and yet she hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, been subjected to the kind of criticism that the Kents, who are imperfect people trying to be the best parents they possibly can in the face of fear and uncertainty as a result of their own knowledge of their son's potential and specialness, have even though she's an imperfect person trying to do everything she can to prevent her daughter from actually living a life or ever being in a position to fulfill her destiny simply because she fears what will happen. The Kents are trying to protect Clark while simultaneously bracing themselves for the possibility that Clark will choose to cast off/disregard that protection and making it clear that they will support him in that decision in spite of their fear, whereas Hippolyta is trying to protect Diana forever with no intention of ever having to face the potentiality of Diana ever discarding/casting aside or rebelling against said protection, and who only softens her stance when outside circumstances (be it Antiope's stubbornness or the encroachment of Man's World upon Themiscyra and Diana's stubbornness) force her to.
WW joins the club of being a CBMs that grosses $300 million domestically. TDK, TDKRises, BvS, and SS are also in attendance.
MOS is in spitting distance of $300 million domestic at $291 million.
From competing studios:
Deadpool is the only $300+ million from Fox. The closest runner ups being X-Men DOFP at $234 million and Logan at $226 million
Spider-Man 1, 2 and 3 were all $300+ million. TASM1 topped out at $262 million and TASM 2 topped at $202 million.
Pressure is on, Homecoming.
IM 1-3, Cap CACW, Avengers 1 and 2, GOTG 1 and 2 are all $300+ million. The closest to $300 million for the MCU is Cap TWS at $260 million and Dr Strange at $232 million.
MOS is in spitting distance of $300 million domestic at $291 million.
From competing studios:
Deadpool is the only $300+ million from Fox. The closest runner ups being X-Men DOFP at $234 million and Logan at $226 million
Spider-Man 1, 2 and 3 were all $300+ million. TASM1 topped out at $262 million and TASM 2 topped at $202 million.
Pressure is on, Homecoming.
IM 1-3, Cap CACW, Avengers 1 and 2, GOTG 1 and 2 are all $300+ million. The closest to $300 million for the MCU is Cap TWS at $260 million and Dr Strange at $232 million.
A bad parent who managed to instill altruism, compassion and love in Diana.
Whereas Clark turned into an emo jerk, just saying.
The difference in reaction to the Kents and Hippolyta is the difference in how they were presented. Jonathan Kent's ambivalence in that situation was entirely appropriate and interesting, but the line and the presentation didn't come across the way I think Snyder intended. Same as with the utterly bonkers decision regarding the tornado, for that matter.
Whereas Hippolyta's attempt to keep Diana from training and then to choose to go with Steve was presented in a way that makes her a more sympathetic character.
Whereas Hippolyta's attempt to keep Diana from training and then to choose to go with Steve was presented in a way that makes her a more sympathetic character.
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Hippolyta seemed surprisingly accepting of Diana leaving. I liked that. She obviously wanted her to stay because she loves her but she didn't insist on controlling Diana's life. I thought that was a nice touch.
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