Spoilers Wish World grade and discussion thread

[The Wormhole]

I'm only forty exactly and I know who Omega is. Granted, I have the benefit of an uncle really into Doctor Who and had a working knowledge of DW trivia and lore for several years before I even started watching Doctor Who as a result, so my experience and knowledge may not necessarily reflect that of other fans my age.

What I don't get is if the plan depended on doubts, then why would doubters be reported and disappeared?

I have a feeling the whole thing reporting doubters might have been a bluff. People believe doubters are rounded up, and maybe their memories have been manipulated to make them think they've witnessed doubters getting apprehended, but in fact everyone just lives in fear of doubting. After all, near the start of the episode, Belinda reported Ruby for doubting but the police never showed up to apprehend her. I suspect the real reason the Doctor and Belinda were apprehended at the end for being doubters was because the Rani needed the Doctor now for his part in her plan.

 

[jaime]

Sure, if you say so...

Well, you can always go and check out those other stories if you like. The first one he did, with the Dalek Mutant taking over people was the most original one he did, but a little clunky in places. Most of the others were mix and match remixes, like I said.
Though I agree with you both in that after Ecclestone there wasn’t really any good Dalek stories. Maybe, maybe, Into The Dalek. But I am never a fan of shrinking stories.

Ah, actually, I quite like Asylum of the Daleks too. And the Magicians Apprentice.

 

[jaime]

I'm only forty exactly and I know who Omega is. Granted, I have the benefit of an uncle really into Doctor Who and had a working knowledge of DW trivia and lore for several years before I even started watching Doctor Who as a result, so my experience and knowledge may not necessarily reflect that of other fans my age.

I have a feeling the whole thing reporting doubters might have been a bluff. People believe doubters are rounded up, and maybe their memories have been manipulated to make them think they've witnessed doubters getting apprehended, but in fact everyone just lives in fear of doubting. After all, near the start of the episode, Belinda reported Ruby for doubting but the police never showed up to apprehend her. I suspect the real reason the Doctor and Belinda were apprehended at the end for being doubters was because the Rani needed the Doctor now for his part in her plan.

Plus it plays on human nature. If you’re told *not* to do something, you will. (Though again, I worry we are giving too much credit here, with season finales past to go by, it’s probably one part plot hole to one part just done for the vibes. At least one YT commented, who I admittedly don’t like, was right to point out that all the police taking the Doctor away were white actors, whereas when we get Unit et al they’re usually multiethnic. Which would be pretty shoddy, if you think about it. Still, I wasn’t paying attention to the extras there, so can’t confirm it is the case anyway.)

 

[Turtletrekker]

It's May 25th. That makes today a canon violation.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Harvested makes sense.

Ergons? Borrowing from Omega who she hasn't met yet as far as we know. Possible I suppose.

Or maybe she has. And Omega is influencing all we see. Conrad's Incel-paradise overlayed with Omega's peculiarities.

 

[cultcross]

Oh good, the classic time lord character I hadn't heard of last week was actually just a two series long method of getting us to another classic time lord character I hadn't heard of one week later. Along the way creating a copy of a classic time lord character I hadn't heard of to set up a strongly telegraphed betrayal-and-get-killed-for-it story for next time.
And all these characters cheese about the place like Thunderbirds villains while the potentially interesting/relevant bad guy is relegated to less-interesting Wanda.

When did all this feel like a good idea?

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

When did all this feel like a good idea?

The '80s, probably.

 

[jaime]

It was a good idea when it was done properly with Missy. (Except instead of introducing another old Time Lord, Missy just had old Time Lord tech for her finale.)

I suppose it depends, are we likely to see The Rani going forwards? Watch character development over a few years?

I doubt it.

 

[Pindar]

I really enjoyed this. The aesthetic was great and I loved the whole sequence in the UNIT building.

Got weaker to the end but I am looking forward to next week.

I presume we will find out why the TARDIS doors blew off at the end of last weeks episode.

As we're counting I am 55, I was only 3 when the 3 Doctors aired to be fair, but I do have a memory of watching the Planet of Spiders.

 

[Starkers]

I really enjoyed this. The aesthetic was great and I loved the whole sequence in the UNIT building.

Got weaker to the end but I am looking forward to next week.

I presume we will find out why the TARDIS doors blew off at the end of last weeks episode.

As we're counting I am 55, I was only 3 when the 3 Doctors aired to be fair, but I do have a memory of watching the Planet of Spiders.

I think my earliest Who memory is a snippet of Planet of the Spiders

 

[26138]

My first experience with Doctor Who was The Dominators late one night on PBS. Had no idea what I was watching. Started watching deliberately with Spearhead in Space on PBS through The Twin Dilemma. First episode of Twin was enough to turn me off Who for a long time!

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

I don't know what my first experience with Who was... I was a cliche at the time, and was hiding behind a sofa. I definitely heard daleks at one point. I definitely saw some of the end of Tom Baker's era, but it's Logopolis that has stayed with me in memory, the image of a TARDIS within a TARDIS. Watched everything else from Peter Davison onwards as broadcast.

 

[Turtletrekker]

My first Who experience was Day of the Doctor. That's right,

Day
of
the
Doctor.

I was thrown straight into the deep end with multiple Doctors, the time war, Gallifrey, Daleks, UNIT, a regeneration and the whole nine yards all in my first experience. And I never felt lost or confused about what was going on in the story. That's why I just don't get all these complaints about bringing in this stuff from the old show. It's like complaining that they're putting Doctor Who in your Doctor Who.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

If I've ever complained about how they've brought things back, then it's because of the way they've done it.

The first Dalek was introduced as an enemy from the Time War the Doctor had fought off screen, and that worked great. The Master was set up through the Face of Boe, the Chameleon Arch, and the references to Harold Saxon, so that reveal hit whether you knew he was a classic villain or not. Sarah Jane's reintroduction was done brilliantly as you could guess that she was a previous Rose and understand what that meant right from the start.

But in season 1 of this jumping on point for new viewers they put Susan Twist into each episode to get people guessing what it was all leading up to and then... it was a dude that even older fans would have to google. That is not a satisfying answer to the mystery.

And then in season 2 they did the exact same thing. Season 1 took the time to teach us about Susan but it forgot to mention why we should care about Omega.

 

[jaime]

I don't know what my first experience with Who was... I was a cliche at the time, and was hiding behind a sofa. I definitely heard daleks at one point. I definitely saw some of the end of Tom Baker's era, but it's Logopolis that has stayed with me in memory, the image of a TARDIS within a TARDIS. Watched everything else from Peter Davison onwards as broadcast.

So, odds are it was Destiny of the Daleks in season 17, as Logopolis was just the next season probably.

This is why I use Who as a chronology method for most of my life. It’s fairly easy to pin things down xD

 

[jaime]

If I've ever complained about how they've brought things back, then it's because of the way they've done it.

The first Dalek was introduced as an enemy from the Time War the Doctor had fought off screen, and that worked great. The Master was set up through the Face of Boe, the Chameleon Arch, and the references to Harold Saxon, so that reveal hit whether you knew he was a classic villain or not. Sarah Jane's reintroduction was done brilliantly as you could guess that she was a previous Rose and understand what that meant right from the start.

But in season 1 of this jumping on point for new viewers they put Susan Twist into each episode to get people guessing what it was all leading up to and then... it was a dude that even older fans would have to google. That is not a satisfying answer to the mystery.

And then in season 2 they did the exact same thing. Season 1 took the time to teach us about Susan but it forgot to mention why we should care about Omega.

Except the Susan Twist thing didn’t reveal or really lead to anything, as she’s only ‘Susan Triad Technology or Sue Tech’ in the episode where the reveal came. It was daft. Mrs Flood being the Rani is… ok? But there’s no clues to it at all (same as all the non-clues and outright — well let’s be charitable and call it unreliable narration, in ‘season 1’) so it doesn’t feel interesting.
If you go really deep cut, and talk about things of magic at the edge of the universe, reasserting themselves now the Time Lords are No More, then sure… a fan who spent far to much time in the books etc might start assuming Gallifreyan Heroes (Rassilon, Omega) but to be honest it’s unlikely even then.

Basically, the clues are never clues, which is always the way RTD works anyway. His mystery boxes only ever just about work retroactively.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

To be fair there were clues to Mrs Flood being the Rani, but they're very meta (she was dressing like companions, the actress is married to the guitarist from Queen, it's the character's 40th anniversary etc.)

The problem for me is that the seasons and episodes are structured so that the reveal of the big bad guy has to function as a shocking emotional moment for viewers. When the audience shrugs and goes 'Oh it's apparently some guy from season 13' then the whole thing falls flat.

 

[Nerys Myk]

the actress is married to the guitarist from Queen

Rani = Queen? I guess that works.

 

[jaime]

To be fair there were clues to Mrs Flood being the Rani, but they're very meta (she was dressing like companions, the actress is married to the guitarist from Queen, it's the character's 40th anniversary etc.)

The problem for me is that the seasons and episodes are structured so that the reveal of the big bad guy has to function as a shocking emotional moment for viewers. When the audience shrugs and goes 'Oh it's apparently some guy from season 13' then the whole thing falls flat.

I picked up on the companions costumes, which works, but married to due from Queen is a mad one it must be said. I’m not sure about the anniversary thing as a clue. Maybe we can pass off having no Who next year as part of a cunning plan to celebrate the eighteen month hiatus of 85/86 (though even then we got Who once per calendar year somehow…)

Does that mean we can get the computer from Slipback as a recurring character? I always quite liked that one…

Edit: does this mean that because the Doctor, through marriage to River and therefore Amy Pond’s son-in-law, is by definition a body of water, as we know that Rory and Amy are ‘the Ponds’ thereby taking on the matriarchal name, so Mrs.Flood by reversion to tradition has taken on the Doctors thematic name, so when she repopulates the Gallifreyan race with her’s and the Doctors Space Babies, it will all make sense?

 

[CuriousCaitian]

Certainly an entertaining watch, with fun performances, fantastic visuals, & that classic RTD build, & the Omega reveal did get a reaction out of me - score one for Bluesky's muting functionality for helping me stay unspoiled (I will never understand the need to know what's coming; surprise is a huge part of the fun, for me) - but I have to agree it's hard to rate the ep given it was 95% setup, & at core something we've seen so many times now. Ultimate reset button incoming, quite likely!

And yes, I too have concerns about just how much remains to be resolved in a single episode. Makes me wonder if everything will be, if maybe some things will be left for any future series/specials.

Side note: the book Conrad was reading from looked very much like the original Harry Potter covers. Subtle, RTD.

Oh, and I'm 48, and my first Who encounter was not a positive one, as I likely have mentioned before. I believe I have Colin Baker's first series to thank for that. Obviously, my opinion has since shifted.