Wiped Episode Discoveries
- Thread starter Allyn Gibson
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
At a guess, not knowing the specifics of this situation, it's probably two things.
First, compensation.
Second, legal immunity.
The first one's kind of obvious -- the person, theoretically, has something the BBC wants. The BBC would claim, "That's our property you have." The person who has the cannisters, however, may not view it that way. He may want either money to exchange hands or for the BBC to return the film to him once they've made duplicates. The BBC may not be willing to do either.
The second one isn't obvious, but I've heard it cited before in other returns. The films that were sent overseas were BBC property. If someone held on to them rather than returning them or destroying them, they're stolen goods and the person who has them could be prosecuted. The owner might be willing to give them back to the BBC (either gratis or with a price attached) in exchange for no criminal charges.
In short, the legal issues on this would be a murky Gordian knot.
At a guess, not knowing the specifics of this situation, it's probably two things.
First, compensation.
Second, legal immunity.
The first one's kind of obvious -- the person, theoretically, has something the BBC wants. The BBC would claim, "That's our property you have." The person who has the cannisters, however, may not view it that way. He may want either money to exchange hands or for the BBC to return the film to him once they've made duplicates. The BBC may not be willing to do either.
The second one isn't obvious, but I've heard it cited before in other returns. The films that were sent overseas were BBC property. If someone held on to them rather than returning them or destroying them, they're stolen goods and the person who has them could be prosecuted. The owner might be willing to give them back to the BBC (either gratis or with a price attached) in exchange for no criminal charges.
In short, the legal issues on this would be a murky Gordian knot.
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
In which case, sensibly the BBC would say :
'As we would have destroyed them had they been returned to us, we waive any previous claim of ownership in return for the return of the films. There was therefore no theft.
These films are extremely valuable to us and would have been lost without your intervention. We will therefore happily compensate you accordingly.'
In which case, sensibly the BBC would say :
'As we would have destroyed them had they been returned to us, we waive any previous claim of ownership in return for the return of the films. There was therefore no theft.
These films are extremely valuable to us and would have been lost without your intervention. We will therefore happily compensate you accordingly.'
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
Thirdly condition, just because a film can contains an episode doesn't mean it will be recoverable.
When I heard the story a year ago it was 44 episodes. 90 was unreal. But for the 90 not to include 4 that had been animated anyway, seems a coincidence too far. A few of the sites are backtracking now, but I do think there's some minor truth it all somewhere.
Thirdly condition, just because a film can contains an episode doesn't mean it will be recoverable.
When I heard the story a year ago it was 44 episodes. 90 was unreal. But for the 90 not to include 4 that had been animated anyway, seems a coincidence too far. A few of the sites are backtracking now, but I do think there's some minor truth it all somewhere.
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
Nail. Coffin.
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/06/17/more-on-those-missing-doctor-who-episodes-or-less/
Nail. Coffin.
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/06/17/more-on-those-missing-doctor-who-episodes-or-less/
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
Thank you for clarifying that. Compensation is rather obvious, come to think of it, but I must admit I find legal immunity rather puzzling. I agree what you say makes sense, but I find it a little difficult that it would be an actual concern, especially considering BBC destroyed all of those episodes years ago and have come to regret it. On the flip side, it does make sense on a corporate level and I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised.
Another fair point. I've been so caught up on this rumor-mongering that I didn't even consider the obvious probability that many of these returned episodes are in poor condition.
I also found the coincidence to be rather striking that several of the "still missing" serials were those that have been animated already, although I admit I thought of it in the opposite direction, i.e. proof of validity. Your premise is far more likely, unfortunately.
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
If it's really a hoax I hope the guy hoaxing (is that a word?) everyone burns in hell for all eternity, I will start believing in hell just for him.
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
Anyone who really thought that nearly every missing episode was going to turn up in the Anniversary Year really only has themselves to blame.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, as opposed to in this case no proof at all.
Anyone who really thought that nearly every missing episode was going to turn up in the Anniversary Year really only has themselves to blame.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, as opposed to in this case no proof at all.
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
Journeys End was good. I like the fact all the companions returned and Davros did. If you want a bad modern Dalek story, look no further than Victory of the Daleks. Daleks in Manhattan and Evolution of the Daleks was worse than Journeys End and Stolen Earth (although still okay).
Journeys End was good. I like the fact all the companions returned and Davros did. If you want a bad modern Dalek story, look no further than Victory of the Daleks. Daleks in Manhattan and Evolution of the Daleks was worse than Journeys End and Stolen Earth (although still okay).
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
I still call bollocks on this.
I want to believe but to say a stock pile of 8000 film cans comprising of 90 missing episodes conveniently turns up in the anniversary year is veeeerrrrry unlikely.
The fact it's anniversary year means any Who related news will be spread faster than normal. Throw a rumour into the mix and it'll be all over the Internet/world in 24 hours.
I still call bollocks on this.
I want to believe but to say a stock pile of 8000 film cans comprising of 90 missing episodes conveniently turns up in the anniversary year is veeeerrrrry unlikely.
The fact it's anniversary year means any Who related news will be spread faster than normal. Throw a rumour into the mix and it'll be all over the Internet/world in 24 hours.
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
The Wheel in Space has four missing episodes. If the serial is simply missing from the collection I'd believe it, but why is there a partial serial being retained...?
The Wheel in Space has four missing episodes. If the serial is simply missing from the collection I'd believe it, but why is there a partial serial being retained...?
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
Rich Johnston signed onto the missing episodes forum and had this to say:
Rich Johnston signed onto the missing episodes forum and had this to say:
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
The problem with that attitude, though, is that just reporting them at all gives them an air of credibility. There was a time when one of the basic standards of good journalism was that you didn't report anything until you had at least two reliable sources for it, that rumors and hearsay were not news and thus didn't deserve to be treated as news. The problem with the 24-hour news cycle and the Internet is that it creates incessant pressure to report something even when you don't have anything solid to report at all.
The problem with that attitude, though, is that just reporting them at all gives them an air of credibility. There was a time when one of the basic standards of good journalism was that you didn't report anything until you had at least two reliable sources for it, that rumors and hearsay were not news and thus didn't deserve to be treated as news. The problem with the 24-hour news cycle and the Internet is that it creates incessant pressure to report something even when you don't have anything solid to report at all.
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
When people are talking 90 out of 106 lost episodes, that's when I (with difficulty) dial back my expectations. That's just flat out too good to be true. At best - AT BEST - I'm thinking the real number is somewhere between 2 and 20 episodes. Probably far closer to the former.
If all of this turns out to be vapor though - or worse, if it all gets scuttled because this guy couldn't keep his mouth shut - Johnston better pray the Daleks find him before any hardcore old-school Whovians do. At least the Daleks grant a quick death.
(I'm only joking, of course.)
When people are talking 90 out of 106 lost episodes, that's when I (with difficulty) dial back my expectations. That's just flat out too good to be true. At best - AT BEST - I'm thinking the real number is somewhere between 2 and 20 episodes. Probably far closer to the former.
If all of this turns out to be vapor though - or worse, if it all gets scuttled because this guy couldn't keep his mouth shut - Johnston better pray the Daleks find him before any hardcore old-school Whovians do. At least the Daleks grant a quick death.
(I'm only joking, of course.)
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
See, this is the part I just don't get. "Oh everyone knows I have these episodes now so I'm not going to give them to the BBC!" is a line of thought I just can't follow.
See, this is the part I just don't get. "Oh everyone knows I have these episodes now so I'm not going to give them to the BBC!" is a line of thought I just can't follow.
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
Unless you add "for anything less than nine figures." (And if you think that's too much for anyone to ask, think about how close the BBC came to destroying all of Monty Python's Flying Circus in the early 70's - and how much they'd be willing to pay today for even a single episode in a world without it.)
Unless you add "for anything less than nine figures." (And if you think that's too much for anyone to ask, think about how close the BBC came to destroying all of Monty Python's Flying Circus in the early 70's - and how much they'd be willing to pay today for even a single episode in a world without it.)
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Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
The only reason they would keep it secret is for bargaining purposes. If it's public knowledge, then the guy with the film would see the public excitement for it and use that as leverage against the BBC.
This could all come down to the BBC not having enough money to buy the film.
The only reason they would keep it secret is for bargaining purposes. If it's public knowledge, then the guy with the film would see the public excitement for it and use that as leverage against the BBC.
This could all come down to the BBC not having enough money to buy the film.
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
I agree with this, with one major caveat.
Rich Johnston takes pains to say that he's not a reporter and that what he does isn't journalism. A lot of what he does looks like journalism, but by journalistic standards it's poorly sourced rumor mongering or reporting from off-the-record sources.
In this particular case, I was curious when anyone was going to pay attention to the rumors surrounding an episode find. While I have some issues with Johnston, particularly some of the methods he uses, in this case I feel that his initial report was appropriate and the blowback he's received from some corners of Who fandom is absurd and says more about the insecurity and insularity of some segments of fandom than it does about him.
I agree with this, with one major caveat.
Rich Johnston takes pains to say that he's not a reporter and that what he does isn't journalism. A lot of what he does looks like journalism, but by journalistic standards it's poorly sourced rumor mongering or reporting from off-the-record sources.
In this particular case, I was curious when anyone was going to pay attention to the rumors surrounding an episode find. While I have some issues with Johnston, particularly some of the methods he uses, in this case I feel that his initial report was appropriate and the blowback he's received from some corners of Who fandom is absurd and says more about the insecurity and insularity of some segments of fandom than it does about him.
Re: Rumors of a Special Surprise for the Anniversary
It's very interesting to know how such a rumour would start if some many people were whispering about it.
I said it before so I'll say it again - in 2011 only half a dozen people knew two episodes had just been found and they kept that secret for six months. Granted 90 episodes would be a different story but I can't see how so many people 'who are close to the discovery' or 'in the know' would openly mention it.
If I found an episode I'd contact Paul V straight away and speak with him only. Arrange shipping to the BBC with him only. I'd be biting my tongue every day I'd come on this forum but there's no sense ballsing it up ahead of time. There's a notion - be it right or wrong - that fans think they have the right to demand to know immediately when something has been found.
Just wait for the official announcement, and if Paul/Steve/Her Majesty the Queen says it's not true then believe them.
[/rant]
It's very interesting to know how such a rumour would start if some many people were whispering about it.
I said it before so I'll say it again - in 2011 only half a dozen people knew two episodes had just been found and they kept that secret for six months. Granted 90 episodes would be a different story but I can't see how so many people 'who are close to the discovery' or 'in the know' would openly mention it.
If I found an episode I'd contact Paul V straight away and speak with him only. Arrange shipping to the BBC with him only. I'd be biting my tongue every day I'd come on this forum but there's no sense ballsing it up ahead of time. There's a notion - be it right or wrong - that fans think they have the right to demand to know immediately when something has been found.
Just wait for the official announcement, and if Paul/Steve/Her Majesty the Queen says it's not true then believe them.
[/rant]
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