Wiped Episode Discoveries

[Christopher]

^Yeah, but The Four Doctor said that was the only reason it's hyped, and I don't think that's true. One of the reasons, okay, but the only one? I don't buy that. Heck, I've wanted to see "Marco Polo" ever since I read the novelization decades ago, and I never heard about the "widely sold" thing until literally this morning.

 

[The Four Doctor]

i meant in the missing episodes debate, not the debate about its merits as a story

 

[Christopher]

i meant in the missing episodes debate, not the debate about its merits as a story

Well, of course that's what we're talking about, but I'm saying the latter informs the former. Would people get so excited about the possibility of its recovery if it weren't well-regarded as a story?

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

So, is any news coming our way this month? Just asking.

 

[Nightowl1701]

So far there's been no further details, or any proof. The DW fan community, to their credit, seems to be a taking a skeptical "I'll believe it when I see it" approach to the latest rumors.

EDIT: The two orphaned episodes have now been identified by whoever's spreading the rumor: Part 3 of The Celestial Toymaker (A Doctor-less episode, with companions Steven and Dodo stuck in the middle of one really sad pantomime) & Part 4 (of 6) of Fury from the Deep (Actually a Troughton episode with tons of foam, seaweed & the sinister Mr. Oak & Mr. Quill).

As this was originally announced as two Hartnell episodes, I'm rating this one lower and lower on the reliability scale.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Marco Polo is only hyped because it was the most widely sold story yet sod's law meant that none of it survived.

Is there some particular explanation as to why "Marco Polo" is still missing? It's funny, considering Seasons 1 & 2 are otherwise so relatively intact, that there would be an entire 7-part story that's just totally gone.

There are at least explanations behind the other 4 missing episodes from the 1st 2 seasons. "The Reign of Terror" parts 4 & 5 were destroyed by Turkish bombing during the Cyprus civil war of the 1970s. (Parts 1, 2, 3, & 6 only survived because they were being kept in a different building at the time.) "The Crusade" parts 2 & 4 are missing because most of the surviving episodes from that era were recovered from Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia never bought "The Crusade" because an Arab TV audience would be unlikely to enjoy a story about the Crusades told from a British perspective.

But what's "Marco Polo"'s excuse?

Well, I think the story's own merits play a role too. It was the first real historical serial in the series (prehistory doesn't count), photos of its beautiful sets survive, and it reads and sounds like a pretty good story. Plus it's the longest and most epic of the completely missing historicals (the others being "The Myth Makers," "The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve," "The Smugglers," and "The Highlanders," all 4-parters).

Honestly, I think a good chunk of its cache & mystique comes from the fact that it's the earliest missing episodes. When you're on a methodical binge-watch of the complete series from beginning to end, this is the first roadblock.

Personally, of all the missing episodes, the ones I'd like to have back the most at this point are "The Highlanders." But I'll settle for animated reconstructions of those instead.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

It was a massive invasion of his privacy though. Put it this way, that day he could have been knee deep in a dangerous country, delicately negotiating to relive a station of some 'worthless' prints. The last thing you want to do is tip off the owners they have something that isn't worthless.

As I understand it, he located & retrieved the episodes in 2011 but the rumors didn't start going until 2013.

 

[Christopher]

Honestly, I think a good chunk of its cache & mystique comes from the fact that it's the earliest missing episodes.

Well, the word you want there is cachet (seal of approval, reputation). Although I'd love it if it had a cache (hidden store), since that would mean it still exists somewhere.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

D'oh!

 

[diankra]

Is there some particular explanation as to why "Marco Polo" is still missing? It's funny, considering Seasons 1 & 2 are otherwise so relatively intact, that there would be an entire 7-part story that's just totally gone.

There are at least explanations behind the other 4 missing episodes from the 1st 2 seasons. "The Reign of Terror" parts 4 & 5 were destroyed by Turkish bombing during the Cyprus civil war of the 1970s. (Parts 1, 2, 3, & 6 only survived because they were being kept in a different building at the time.) "The Crusade" parts 2 & 4 are missing because most of the surviving episodes from that era were recovered from Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia never bought "The Crusade" because an Arab TV audience would be unlikely to enjoy a story about the Crusades told from a British perspective.

But what's "Marco Polo"'s excuse?



Honestly, I think a good chunk of its cache & mystique comes from the fact that it's the earliest missing episodes. When you're on a methodical binge-watch of the complete series from beginning to end, this is the first roadblock.

Personally, of all the missing episodes, the ones I'd like to have back the most at this point are "The Highlanders." But I'll settle for animated reconstructions of those instead.

There was a 'highlights' package of seasons one and two issued in the late 60s that didn't include most of the historical stories. That's what was returned to Enterprises and found there in 78, which is why Marco, Reign and Crusade weren't recovered then.
The slight mystery is why Aztecs and Romans were included. Best guess on Aztecs is that Mexico was the first buyer and may have requested it.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Shit, for a second I thought there was an announcement to read.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

"The Aztecs" & "The Romans" are also 2 of the better historical stories out there. Personally, I love "The Romans"'s weird whiplash-inducing combination of epic rescue story & door-slamming farce. And I think most fans hold "The Aztecs" in high esteem. This was even the story that the modern producers picked for William Hartnell's entry in the "Doctors Revisited" DVD set 4 years ago.

On the other hand, based on the surviving episodes, "The Reign of Terror" & "The Crusade" are quite dull. And despite its reputation, I kinda doubt that "Marco Polo" is so great as to justify being 7 episodes long. (Surviving historicals like "The Aztecs," "The Romans," & "An Unearthly Child" all have the virtue of being 4-parters.)

 

[Christopher]

"The Aztecs" & "The Romans" are also 2 of the better historical stories out there. Personally, I love "The Romans"'s weird whiplash-inducing combination of epic rescue story & door-slamming farce.

Albeit a really dark farce, dealing with such things as assassination and attempted rape. The image of a powerful man pursuing a subordinate woman with sexual conquest in mind is something that was a frequent topic for humor in earlier generations, but is harder to take lightly today.

On the other hand, based on the surviving episodes, "The Reign of Terror" & "The Crusade" are quite dull.

I think they're pretty fun. Especially "The Crusade," since it was written as if the TARDIS crew had stumbled into a lost Shakespeare play about Richard I. Its main problem is one that a lot of the historicals shared -- it fizzles out in the final episode, because the travelers can't affect history and so they have to walk away from the main story and shift their focus to just getting back to the TARDIS.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I love both The Reign of Terror and The Crusade. However, I think the biggest problem with The Crusade is Bernard Key playing Saladin, even if that type of casting was standard issue back then.

 

[Christopher]

I love both The Reign of Terror and The Crusade. However, I think the biggest problem with The Crusade is Bernard Key playing Saladin, even if that type of casting was standard issue back then.

There are very few nonwhite characters in early Doctor Who that aren't played by white actors. "Marco Polo" was pretty progressive in having Zienia Merton as Ping-Cho, though all the other Asian characters were played by white actors. The first black actor in a significant speaking role the series was Elroy Josephs as the pirate "Jamaica" in "The Smugglers," which was a pretty stereotyped role -- though the second was Earl Cameron in the very next serial, "The Tenth Planet," in the very non-stereotyped role of astronaut Glyn Williams. Which apparently caused some problems on the set, because William Hartnell unfortunately had some pretty backward racial attitudes.

 

[Nightowl1701]

Is there some particular explanation as to why "Marco Polo" is still missing? It's funny, considering Seasons 1 & 2 are otherwise so relatively intact, that there would be an entire 7-part story that's just totally gone.

As I've said before, I'm willing to bet money that there's at least one surviving copy of at least one part of Marco Polo sitting in the safe of a private film collector somewhere. Maybe the collector's waiting for the right price, perhaps it's waiting to be auctioned off upon that person's death. Complete or not, it was likely one of the first things to get snapped up when fans realized what was happening to the episodes. That even a fragmentary clip of even one part didn't survive to the present day otherwise I find impossible to believe.

 

[Mr Awe]

(Surviving historicals like "The Aztecs," "The Romans," & "An Unearthly Child" all have the virtue of being 4-parters.)

Unfortunately, An Unearthly Child was still three parts too long!

Mr Awe

 

[Australis]

I've never understood the thrill of keeping something locked away from everyone else. Increase in monetary value? Maybe. But think of the cachet (that word again) you'd get releasing it, how people would sing your praises (even if you could have done it years ago).

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Ego. "Haha...I have something everyone else wants but can't have!"

 

[Australis]

I can't imagine having an ego that big, and I have a good imagination.