Will TOS maintain its legendary status as Trek fandom gets younger?

[suarezguy]

I think there's some overlap, but I think TOS and TNG are two different fandoms that too many people try to pass off as one, when I think it's actually not. If you like TOS and TNG, you're really part of two fandoms.

Again I think a lot of people like a lot both and that's not really surprising-if you love Picard and Data you'll probably love Spock too and like Kirk (though OTOH if you love Kirk and just like Spock you may well not like Picard).

TNG is a weird case, it had no staying power with the popular conciousness

Certainly not the wider culture across the world.

Most of the general public finds sci fi in general boring at best, and is also pretty uninterested in anything older than 15 years ago, and yet I think even they acknowledge that TNG (as well as the original) is huge and loved among sci fi fandom so it still has at least some indirect good reputation among the general public.

 

[Lord Garth]

Again I think a lot of people like a lot both and that's not really surprising-if you love Picard and Data you'll probably love Spock too and like Kirk (though OTOH if you love Kirk and just like Spock you may well not like Picard).

I know a lot of people who liked TNG but didn't like TOS. It's down to giving something a chance versus not giving something a chance. Only so much you can do, especially IRL. Can't make someone watch something they don't want to watch. It would become annoying to them, and I don't want to be that person.

And unless I'm hosting a marathon of something while I have friends over (haven't done that since college) or seeing a movie (which we'll still do sometimes, most recently with Barbeheimer), the last thing we're doing when hanging out is watching stuff.

[EDITED TO ADD: Wait. That's not quite true. I did have a marathon to show some friends the first several episodes of Mad Men one night in 2010, but that's an extreme exception.]

My brother's the super-pushy type. "Have you seen this?" "Have you seen this?" He tried to shove DS9 and BSG down people's throats. To the point where they didn't want to watch it. I don't want to be like him in that regard. Now he's been doing it to me with SNW. "Have you seen the new episode of SNW? Have you seen it?" I haven't seen all of SNW but, of the ones I've seen, half of them were just to shut him up so he'd stop asking me all the time.

Most of the general public finds sci fi in general boring at best, and is also pretty uninterested in anything older than 15 years ago

I'd say that sounds about right, for the most part.

 

[JoseNoodles]

I've heard legends of people who only consider TOS and the first six films canon.

 

[James Cole]

By this standard, only The Simpsons, Seinfeld, and Friends would have cultural staying power from the 1990s...

The problem with TOS and TNG will be people seeing just how many episodes there are and not wanting to get overloaded on something when there is an abundance of recent content they've yet to see. One thing Paramount+ could do is have curated playlists of older content. Star Trek, Frasier, you name it...

 

[drt]

Anyone would be hard-pressed to walk down the street of anyplace and find people who would even be vaguely familiar with TNG cast images, dialogue, catchphrases, or recall a single episode plot, and that includes the series' supposedly greatest hours.

While I agree with most of this, the "Captain Picard facepalm" image is a pretty popular meme, so some imagery would be familiar.

I also don't think the general public is all that knowledgeable with TOS plots either, the best you'd get is "the one with tribbles", "the one where Captain Kirk fights a guy in a rubber lizard suit", "the one with Evil Spock that has a beard" and "the one where Captain Kirk bangs a green chick", but I suppose even those vague descriptions is more than you'd get for TNG.

The problem with TOS and TNG will be people seeing just how many episodes there are and not wanting to get overloaded on something when there is an abundance of recent content they've yet to see.

Yeah, I'm sure the 500+ episodes of Berman Trek is a super daunting thought for newer fans. Shoot, I'm surprised occasionally on this board when there's a member who seems pretty knowledgable about Berman Trek will drop the "oh, I grew up with TNG but never watched TOS" (which I guess speaks to @Lord Garth's post above) and that's only 80 episodes, and if one is on this board would have more than enough institutional knowledge to be able to avoid the less popular ones.

One thing Paramount+ could do is have curated playlists of older content. Star Trek, Frasier, you name it...

That's a pretty good idea. At my house we held off watching Picard for a long time because the wife and kids had pretty much zero familiarity with TNG other than the movies, and I felt that there were a bunch of older episodes that would be key to get more enjoyment out of it. To it's credit, you could jump into Discovery with only superficial Trek knowledge, although I show them "Mirror, Mirror", "The Tholian Web" and "Into a Mirror, Darkly" prior to the second half of S1.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Certainly not the wider culture across the world. Anyone would be hard-pressed to walk down the street of anyplace and find people who would even be vaguely familiar with TNG cast images, dialogue, catchphrases, or recall a single episode plot, and that includes the series' supposedly greatest hours. This was a "hit" series which ran for nearly a decade, spawned four films and was the fuel for three sequel series, yet its status--its energy in popular culture is barely a nightlight, when it should be the sun.

I'll call this bluff, and quite easily:

Anecdote: I have a Star Trek license plate. YESTERDAY at the grocery storea stranger told me they're loving and playing Star Trek online, they like the Klingons best as they love Worf.

Last MONDAY at the park a stranger told me they used to love "The show that had Picard as the captain" and that they need to watch the new Picard series.

2 weeks ago at the mall, a stanger asked me if I watched season 3 of Picard as "it was so good".

But you know. Let's keep passing off opionions as facts...

 

[Lord Garth]

I've had a few friends ask me about PIC since it started. Compared to none for anything else after Star Trek Into Darkness.

On a cloudy night where it was pitch black and all you could see on the streets were the neon lights, I made a joke on Facebook about how "It looks like Picard Season 3 outside!" and it got a few laughs. I shared the joke afterwards on here as well.

I won't argue with anyone who says "TOS is better ingrained in pop culture!" It's the truth, it is. But "no one remembers TNG"? No. That isn't true. Everyone knows of Patrick Stewart. And wasn't Wil Wheaton a frequent guest on The Big Bang Theory? He was there because he's basically made a career out of having been Wesley Crusher. That's what he's known for. I wish he wasn't sooooo over-the-top on The Ready Room but, overall, he's made it work for him.

 

[Nyotarules]

I'll call this bluff, and quite easily:

Anecdote: I have a Star Trek license plate. YESTERDAY at the grocery storea stranger told me they're loving and playing Star Trek online, they like the Klingons best as they love Worf.

Last MONDAY at the park a stranger told me they used to love "The show that had Picard as the captain" and that they need to watch the new Picard series.

2 weeks ago at the mall, a stanger asked me if I watched season 3 of Picard as "it was so good".

But you know. Let's keep passing off opionions as facts...

Your experience might not represent the wider world.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I'll call this bluff, and quite easily:

Anecdote: I have a Star Trek license plate. YESTERDAY at the grocery storea stranger told me they're loving and playing Star Trek online, they like the Klingons best as they love Worf.

Last MONDAY at the park a stranger told me they used to love "The show that had Picard as the captain" and that they need to watch the new Picard series.

2 weeks ago at the mall, a stanger asked me if I watched season 3 of Picard as "it was so good".

But you know. Let's keep passing off opionions as facts...

Yes, let us take this convenient story as evidence of TNG's presence in the wider culture across the world.

On that note:

Your experience might not represent the wider world.

Obviously not.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Yes, let us take this convenient story as evidence of TNG's presence in the wider culture across the world.

You literally said "Anyone would be hard-pressed to walk down the street of anyplace and find people who would even be vaguely familiar with TNG", I said you're wrong with my evidence.

Seriously? Or were you being specific but just not mentioning it? "Anyplace, Antarctica" or something.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Your experience might not represent the wider world.

Nobody said it did. Was just pointing out that it's a lie to claim that walking down the road of "anyplace" would find people not familiar with TNG.

Then again, what's your definition of the wider world? I'm game for testing this out.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I'll call this bluff, and quite easily:

Anecdote: I have a Star Trek license plate. YESTERDAY at the grocery storea stranger told me they're loving and playing Star Trek online, they like the Klingons best as they love Worf.

Last MONDAY at the park a stranger told me they used to love "The show that had Picard as the captain" and that they need to watch the new Picard series.

2 weeks ago at the mall, a stanger asked me if I watched season 3 of Picard as "it was so good".

But you know. Let's keep passing off opionions as facts...

Personal anecdotes don’t mean much I’m afraid.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Personal anecdotes don’t mean much I’m afraid.

Simply claiming that walking down the road and not a person will know of TNG means more and is the easier pill to swallow? I'm genuinely confused with this line of thinking.

Editing to add that I'm not saying TNG is more popular than TOS, don't confuse that with my simply opposing the thought that TNG is all but forgotten out there. Two very different things.

 

[Lord Garth]

I have to agree with @M'rk son of Mogh.

I like TOS better than TNG, but I'm not going to pretend -- yes, pretend -- "No one's heard of TNG!" That's bullshit and everyone knows it, even if they don't say it.

If that was really the case, TNG wouldn't have been followed by four movies and Picard. There was never any similar type of follow-up with DS9, VOY, or ENT. Paramount/CBS/Whoever wouldn't have gone through all the trouble of remastering TNG to HD for BluRay, and go through the entire post-production process for every episode all over again, if they thought no one remembered it.

"La la la! No one's heard of TNG! No one remembers TNG!" That's just trying to score points in an Internet Argument. I've been at this since 1996, I've been posting on here since 1999. I know "I'm taking an absurd position and sticking to it until it gives to win an Internet Argument!" when I see it.

"I like TOS better than TNG!" --> Fair enough. So do I.
"TNG is shit!" --> That's an opinion. This board is all about opinions. If you want to know what I think about opinions in general, see what Dirty Harry has to say about the subject.
"TOS is more recognizable than TNG!" --> I agree and have already said so.
"No one even remembers TNG!" --> Not true. This is decidedly false. I go on Facebook and I see TNG memes all the time. Including the Picard facepalm. That's not "personal anecdote". It's there for the masses to see. I went to see a one-day special theater screening of "The Best of Both Worlds" when it was released on Blu-Ray in 2013 and it wasn't an empty theater. If you want me to look up figures for that day, I can and will. I already know it won't be anything huge, but I do know it won't be nothing.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Simply claiming that walking down the road and not a person will know of TNG means more and is the easier pill to swallow? I'm genuinely confused with this line of thinking.

Editing to add that I'm not saying TNG is more popular than TOS, don't confuse that with my simply opposing the thought that TNG is all but forgotten out there. Two very different things.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. TNG is in the public consciousness and people do know what it is. It would be *very* silly to say otherwise.

I was merely pointing out that attempting to trump a poster's unsubstantiated personal opinions with your own unsubstantiated personal anecdotes was not the best way to build a strong case for your argument.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I guess the title asks it all. As new generations of fans discover Star Trek (through the current shows, no less), do you believe that TOS will remain respected and loved in the coming decades - or will it fall by the wayside as fans instead look back with nostalgia on "their" Trek (in most cases, not TOS)?

I was able to chat with some Marketing guys from Australia's then-CIC-Taft Home Video when the 2009 Kelvinverse movie was in theatres. What had really caught them by surprise is that all DVD boxed sets for the various Trek series and movies, not just TOS, enjoyed a huge upswing in sales. Video shops had under-ordered and suddenly needed to meet new demand.

So Trek fans are seemingly always willing to do their homework.

 

[Lord Garth]

I can't get exact figures for The Best of Both Worlds screening on April 25th, 2013, but it was a Fathom Event. I tried looking on Box Office Mojo, but it didn't have anything. This was the best I could do:

https://blog.trekcore.com/2013/02/s...the-best-of-both-worlds-in-theaters-april-25/​

https://cinemasentries.com/fathom-e...ing_wp_cron=1696744346.3191900253295898437500​

https://web.archive.org/web/2013100...-best-of-both-worlds-fathom-events-experience​

I'll quote two excerpts from a reviewer of the event in the last link:

I watched up to the Season 3 finale and waited in anticipation for the event. April 25 came, I sat in my seat surrounded by a theater FILLED with Trekkies (or Trekkers, whatever I call this race of people), and here's what went down.

&

Overall, I was extremely pleased with the event. Besides the gentlemen with the very bright cell phone screen in front of me and the kid to my right who had the bladder of a Cocker Spaniel and got up a few times to use the restroom, this was an incredible evening. Witnessing these fantastic episodes, the great bonus feature from the upcoming Blu-ray, and the hilarious gag reel on the big screen with a Trekkie filled audience was an awesome way to spend a Thursday night.

This matches my account that the theaters weren't empty one the day people went to the screening of this event. Which means that yes, people did (and do) very well remember TNG.

If someone can do deeper digging than I'm able to, it would be welcome.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

You literally said "Anyone would be hard-pressed to walk down the street of anyplace and find people who would even be vaguely familiar with TNG", I said you're wrong with my evidence.

Seriously? Or were you being specific but just not mentioning it? "Anyplace, Antarctica" or something.

Yet you post some all too convenient tale as evidence of TNG's recognition by the general population--a series still not viewed or marketed as the face of a 50+ year old franchise. TNG: A series where its trappings, characters, expressions, etc., are exactly how ingrained in the culture?

Mentioned earlier in the thread, a cancelled TV series returning time and time again as it catapulted to the Mount Rushmore of pop-culture was unprecedented and proved TOS earned its legendary status generations ago. To this date, no other ST series (from Berman to DISCO-launched era) has reached that height to the point where it marched from mere TV series into being recognized within the general culture through its characters and tropes, otherwise, I'm sure someone would have referred to it by now.

The legacy media recognized this with TIME's list of The 100 Most Influential People Who Never Lived (2013). While the list included some rather questionable choices, you will note that one of the cover's featured characters are...you guessed it. No other Star Trek characters from any post-TOS production up to the year of this issues publication were included, and Kirk and Spock were not representatives / stand-ins for all ST characters.

2013 is not ancient history, profiles of that kind are not rare, and the kind of reverence for TOS seen around the world has not diminished. Perhaps someone should ask if other ST series will ever earn a truly legendary status in the world's popular culture.

Personal anecdotes don’t mean much I’m afraid.

True.

 

[fireproof78]

This is why Trek can't have nice things.

Another competition over trivial details rather than being happy a Trek fan enjoyed such a connection.

Sad.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

This is why Trek can't have nice things.

Another competition over trivial details rather than being happy a Trek fan enjoyed such a connection.

Sad.

For some reason it always boils down to these kind of tit for tat discussions.

It is a pity.