Will TOS maintain its legendary status as Trek fandom gets younger?

[Timofnine]

Silliest thing I’ve read all day. The planets don’t exists so there is no ‘heavy coat’ involved and I don’t know what the fuck that the latter half of your ‘statement’ is supposed to mean.

Sorry, sometimes I role play Star Trek with you guys and forget that you probably do not realise. I have a character for each and every one of you.

I meant at a ‘heavy cost’ inverse and it was said in my ‘Future Guy’ voice.

Could be an allegory, though?

 

[Richard S. Ta]

@Timofnine

I don't care anymore, Tim. I've read enough from you today. You need to calm down with the nonsense and wind your neck in because you're not making any friends these days. Generally you're just making yourself look silly and irritating other posters.

 

[Timofnine]

The latter half of the statement meant how Star Trek has seemed a lot more dystopian and darker on screen since Romulus was destroyed, probably as a result of a shift in galactic politics and the formation of power vacuums within the Beta Quadrant which Federation space has a large presence in. A large swathe of the Beta Quadrant is probably no longer a stable area of space with the lack of central management from the Romulan government, it may now be hard to transport supplies and resources with the hole area becoming a bit of a ‘wild west’ in space. It is almost like the idyllic 24th century of the 1990’s shows has began an inverse decline as a result of the destruction of the Romulan sun and its ‘butterfly effects’ within the Beta Quadrant and beyond. I would not be surprised at all if the Klingons took advantage of the situation and made a major incursion in to Romulan space for the ultimate glorious battle of conquest… regardless of any treaties that they may have with the Federation, I am sure that tensions with the Klingons would again rise due to their lust for battle and victory over their enemy. I enjoyed the series Picard, but this is the impression that it gave to me… the hope, exploration and scientific discoveries gone. Prodigy is just like 24th century Trek so far, but we all know what happens in that series 2-3 years from now… Prodigy is a prequel to the Galactic events which change *everything*.

Maybe Legacy or a new continuation of 25th century Star Trek can help change things.

 

[Crazyewok]

T It is almost like the idyllic 24th century of the 1990’s shows has began an inverse decline as a result of the destruction of the Romulan sun and its ‘butterfly effects’ within the Beta Quadrant and beyond. I would not be surprised at all if the Klingons took advantage of the situation and made a major incursion in to Romulan space for the ultimate glorious battle of conquest… regardless of any treaties that they may have with the Federation, I am sure that tensions with the Klingons would again rise due to their lust for battle and victory over their enemy. I enjoyed the series Picard, but this is the impression that it gave to me… the hope, exploration and scientific discoveries gone. Prodigy is just like 24th century Trek so far, but we all know what happens in that series 2-3 years from now… Prodigy is a prequel to the Galactic events which change *everything*.

Maybe Legacy or a new continuation of 25th century Star Trek can help change things.

It was only ever idyllic within the federation.

Even in TNG outside the federation borders was horrible.
The Romulans were a totalitarian state that kept its citizens in line through fear via a secret police.
Klingons were still Klingon but targeted their behavior at other targets than the federation like the Romulans, Cardassians and Breen.

You had the cardassians who were literally NAZI in space committing a planetary scale genocide complete with concentration camps coupled with its border wars with the federation.

In Picard the federation was still idyllic and there were no signs on earth of anything but a extremally high standard of living.

 

[Timofnine]

It was only ever idyllic within the federation.

Even in TNG outside the federation borders was horrible.
The Romulans were a totalitarian state
Klingons were still Klingon but targeted their behavior at other targets than the federation like the Romulans, Cardassians and Breen.

You had the cardassians who were literally NAZI in space committing a planetary scale genocide complete with concentration camps coupled with its border wars with the federation.

In Picard the federation was still idyllic and there were no signs on earth of anything but a extremally high standard of living.

There was a status quo within TNG, a finely balanced alignment of powers which one day could have even led to galactic peace with people like Spock championing the importance of unity between species.

The destruction of Romulus changes everything, much in the same way as the destruction of the Borg Collective would have done so in the Delta Quadrant. All that we really know, is that the destruction of the Romulan sun caused a *massive* refuge crisis, with the Federation having to take in Romulan citizens. All of this eventually leads to the attack on Utopia Planetia and the subsequent paranoia in regards to synthetics and AI which adds to the dystopian feel of things.

The Alpha Quadrant had already suffered *massively* in the aftermath of the Dominion War, the Cardassians themselves almost being wiped out by the Founders, I am not sure what the final Cardassian losses were, but they would have been substantial to the point of being society changing, with it being highly likely that the Detapa council would have taken over from the High Command… there was likely a high level of political instability within Cardassian borders for *many* years after the Dominion War.

25th century Nu-Trek has not shown us much of the new Galactic ‘order’ of things, with the stories being quite ‘ship in a bottle’ like, keeping intergalactic politics out of it, or at least keeping them vague. I can only speculate that the destruction of the Romulan sun would cause massive upheaval and disorder within the Beta Quadrant that other species such as the Klingons *would* have taken advantage of, as the centuries old status quo would be no more. The finely balanced scales of peace would have been irreversibly tipped to the point where other species, perhaps even the Hirogen, would have taken advantage of the unbalanced order of things. Romulan space would make for a great Hirogen hunting range…

I do not think that the Ferengi Trade Union would have interfered *too* much with what is left of the Romulan Empire due to their lucrative new trade treaties with the Federation, as negotiated by Grand Nagus Rom.

 

[StarMan]

@Timofnine: I prescribe one box of pencils and a padded room.

Doctor Wykoff should be along shortly.

 

[MikHutch]

Well, the Ferengi aren't really close to Romulan space anyways

 

[Timofnine]

@Timofnine: I prescribe one box of pencils and a padded room.

Doctor Wykoff should be along shortly.

 

[fireproof78]

This corruption of the space time continuum could be prevented via a temporal incursion, preventing the destruction of Romulus and Remus and the resulting dystopian repercussions on the late 24th century. A

This assumes much based on little evidence.

Star Trek is not dystopian because of this destruction. It was already had darker stories before ST 09, and nothing was perverted because the timeline does not have one course.

This is a ridiculous assertion on its face.

 

[Crazyewok]

This assumes much based on little evidence.

Star Trek is not dystopian because of this destruction. It was already had darker stories before ST 09, and nothing was perverted because the timeline does not have one course.

This is a ridiculous assertion on its face.

correct
Cardassian society and what they did to Bajor was as dystopian as you can get.

Then there was Turkana IV......... a failed colony with rape gangs......

 

[Lord Garth]

But that reboot came at a very heavy cost; the destructions of Romulus, Remus and Vulcan. This JJ reboot also resulted in the further perversion of the continuation of 24th/25th century Trek.

There was a status quo within TNG, a finely balanced alignment of powers which one day could have even led to galactic peace with people like Spock championing the importance of unity between species.

The destruction of Romulus changes everything, much in the same way as the destruction of the Borg Collective would have done so in the Delta Quadrant. All that we really know, is that the destruction of the Romulan sun caused a *massive* refuge crisis, with the Federation having to take in Romulan citizens. All of this eventually leads to the attack on Utopia Planetia and the subsequent paranoia in regards to synthetics and AI which adds to the dystopian feel of things.

The Alpha Quadrant had already suffered *massively* in the aftermath of the Dominion War, the Cardassians themselves almost being wiped out by the Founders, I am not sure what the final Cardassian losses were, but they would have been substantial to the point of being society changing, with it being highly likely that the Detapa council would have taken over from the High Command… there was likely a high level of political instability within Cardassian borders for *many* years after the Dominion War.

25th century Nu-Trek has not shown us much of the new Galactic ‘order’ of things, with the stories being quite ‘ship in a bottle’ like, keeping intergalactic politics out of it, or at least keeping them vague. I can only speculate that the destruction of the Romulan sun would cause massive upheaval and disorder within the Beta Quadrant that other species such as the Klingons *would* have taken advantage of, as the centuries old status quo would be no more. The finely balanced scales of peace would have been irreversibly tipped to the point where other species, perhaps even the Hirogen, would have taken advantage of the unbalanced order of things. Romulan space would make for a great Hirogen hunting range…

I do not think that the Ferengi Trade Union would have interfered *too* much with what is left of the Romulan Empire due to their lucrative new trade treaties with the Federation, as negotiated by Grand Nagus Rom.

You haven't seen "Unification III".

 

[Timofnine]

To be honest, I think that the ‘darkness’ started around the time of Star Trek: First Contact and became a stylistic direction for Star Trek. The 2009 movie series *did* lighten things up a bit with their Apple Store inspired brightly lit bridge and colourful uniforms… but then it all slowly began to descend again quite literally ‘In to Darkness’.

I know that there have been darker dystopian aspects to Star Trek before, but not so often within the Federation itself, these things have usually been shown *outside* of the Federation in the form of an external threat or third party ‘allegory’ for a moral or social commentary which would not exist within the Federation itself so cannot be explored there. Another good example of dystopia would be ‘Paradise’ on Nimbus III, but I think that this was William Shatner’s attempt at making a ‘Star Wars’ like bar for his movie populated by colourful aliens in order to cash in on the iconic visuals of a Tattooine desert town.

We also have other obvious examples of darker aspects to the Federation, such as in the episodes Conspiracy, Paradise Lost/Home Front and the Section 31 episodes to name but a few obvious ones. Deep Space Nine was never quite a utopia either, but the station was on the edge of Federation space so had an excuse for being a bit more edgy…. *not* being set in a Federation ‘Utopia’ was the whole point of DS9, something to set the show apart from The Next Generation. One could also say that Voyager was a ‘struggling’ utopia lost in the dystopia of the Delta Quadrant.

I imagine that the new Section 31 movie will be a little bit dystopian and edgy, but hopefully the theme can be about restoring some of Star Trek’s utopia - which is the whole point of Section 31 as an organisation however dubious their actions may be.

The original optimism and aspiration towards a future utopia, ‘hope for humanity’, is what sets Star Trek apart from other sci-fi series.

 

[Crazyewok]

To be honest, I think that the ‘darkness’ started around the time of Star Trek: First Contact and became a stylistic direction for Star Trek. The 2009 movie series *did* lighten things up a bit with their Apple Store inspired brightly lit bridge and colourful uniforms… but then it all slowly began to descend again quite literally ‘In to Darkness’.

I know that there have been darker dystopian aspects to Star Trek before, but not so often within the Federation itself, these things have usually been shown *outside* of the Federation in the form of an external threat or third party ‘allegory’ for a moral or social commentary which would not exist within the Federation itself so cannot be explored there. Another good example of dystopia would be ‘Paradise’ on Nimbus III, but I think that this was William Shatner’s attempt at making a ‘Star Wars’ like bar for his movie populated by colourful aliens in order to cash in on the iconic visuals of a Tattooine desert town.

We also have other obvious examples of darker aspects to the Federation, such as in the episodes Conspiracy, Paradise Lost/Home Front and the Section 31 episodes to name but a few obvious ones. Deep Space Nine was never quite a utopia either, but the station was on the edge of Federation space so had an excuse for being a bit more edgy…. *not* being set in a Federation ‘Utopia’ was the whole point of DS9, something to set the show apart from The Next Generation. One could also say that Voyager was a ‘struggling’ utopia lost in the dystopia of the Delta Quadrant.

I imagine that the new Section 31 movie will be a little bit dystopian and edgy, but hopefully the theme can be about restoring some of Star Trek’s utopia - which is the whole point of Section 31 as an organisation however dubious their actions may be.

The original optimism and aspiration towards a future utopia, ‘hope for humanity’, is what sets Star Trek apart from other sci-fi series.

You haven't seen TOS. Lots of rogue captains and problematic federation decisions in that.


Infact do you even watch startrek?

 

[Lord Garth]

@Timofnine

I don't care anymore, Tim. I've read enough from you today. You need to calm down with the nonsense and wind your neck in because you're not making any friends these days. Generally you're just making yourself look silly and irritating other posters.

Yup, I agree with this 100%.

This is even worse coming from TimofNine, especially since he used to be a moderator! What the Hell is this, Tim? You think that just because you don't have the green anymore, you can go nuts as in just go nuts? You're not going to be able to keep that up forever.

 

[Timofnine]

You haven't seen TOS. Lots of rogue captains and problematic federation decisions in that.


Infact do you even watch startrek?

I mainly innocently watched Star Trek through the eyes of a child in my youth. I never paid attention to the politics or technicalities, I just accepted them as a part of the story and I absorbed such information through repeat binge viewing. Of course, I obviously have very rose tinted glasses and admit to being naive to some of the commentaries which were probably a bit *too* adult for me to understand at the time. I only recently learnt the full extent of Star Trek and all of it’s allegories.

I admit that even now, I probably *still* watch Star Trek with the eyes of a child, which is why I do not take it too seriously and also like to have a laugh and a bit of banter here with you guys about it all.

Anyway, I know that there are many other examples of the ‘problematic’ aspects of Star Treks ‘Utopia’, but these are issues which make the individual self contained episodes and stories which are often resolved by the end of the episode or story arc.

 

[fireproof78]

To be honest, I think that the ‘darkness’ started around the time of Star Trek: First Contact

Nope.

I think that this was William Shatner’s attempt at making a ‘Star Wars’ like bar for his movie populated by colourful aliens in order to cash in on the iconic visuals of a Tattooine desert town.

Nope. And since you have not seen Star Wars this observation rings especially hollow.

I know that there have been darker dystopian aspects to Star Trek before, but not so often within the Federation itself, these things have usually been shown *outside* of the Federation

Yeah, no.

Rogue captains, Kirk and Spock on espionage missions, uniformity of Federation worlds against individuality, among others.

In Star Trek utopia is purely lip service.

 

[MikHutch]

I think the Federation was only every "Utopian" in the background of FUN

Unfortunately since we never really get enough exploration of the Federation itself it's hard to tell. We know more about the cultures of more non-Federation races

 

[Crazyewok]

I think the Federation was only every "Utopian" in the background of FUN

Unfortunately since we never really get enough exploration of the Federation itself it's hard to tell. We know more about the cultures of more non-Federation races

Federation was only a utopia in the fact earth was consistently shown to be poverty free and bigotry free.

In other ways it was a dystopia.

 

[Dar70]

I think TOS legendary status will begin to fade away if not already. I see a lot more negativity towards it today then I saw 20 or 30 years ago. Especially when it concerns SNW and DISCO. I see a lot of fans from those shows poo poo on TOS.

It doesn't matter though. Everything has it's time in the sun. I will be long dead and not care anymore. One day Star Trek, Star Wars, classic films etc. Will all be forgotten. I can't see future generations (say 100 to 300 years from now) Thinking any of this stuff will be remotely interesting....

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I think TOS legendary status will begin to fade away if not already. I see a lot more negativity towards it today then I saw 20 or 30 years ago. Especially when it concerns SNW and DISCO. I see a lot of fans from those shows poo poo on TOS.

Yet TOS is still the face of the franchise. Its not the Berman series, JJ movies or Nu-Trek. DISCO is still first run and has been met with so much derision that one would think the series was on a Battle Beyond the Stars level. SNW is best known for channeling TOS characters and concepts, but it has not rocketed across the culture to become the face of Star Trek. Some might say "give it time", but consider TNG, which had a far longer run than TOS, more direct spin-offs and almost as many movies, and to this day, if anyone says "Star Trek", I'd wager that Picard, Data and Worf are not the faces seen by their mind's eye. If TNG--overall a greater critical success than DISCO or SNW--still failed to be the face, voice and most marketed chapter of ST, its not a stretch to think no Nu-Trek series will ever attain that kind of legendary status.

It doesn't matter though. Everything has it's time in the sun. I will be long dead and not care anymore.

Well, there's that.

One day Star Trek, Star Wars, classic films etc. Will all be forgotten. I can't see future generations (say 100 to 300 years from now) Thinking any of this stuff will be remotely interesting....

Case by case. There's silent era films that are still enjoyed and/or considered great some 90 to 100 years later. Certainly, its not happening to every film from that period, but some work just had that certain combination of things to make them thrive across several generations.