Nope. Definitely not a dumpster fire. IMO, it was better than Lower Decks or Discovery.
Will TOS maintain its legendary status as Trek fandom gets younger?
- Thread starter BlueStuff
- Start date
Well met, and welcome.
I am in the “not my cup of tea” camp on Prodigy.
I don’t think it was a “dumpster fire”, but I don’t think it’s better than any of the other current shows either.
No other Trek production comes close to characters with their natural chemistry.
True, but TAS was a welcome continuation.
Glad you're enjoying TOS!
Sorry I feel strongly about this so I got ahead of myself. I think PRO is a dumpster fire in the sense that it didn't do what it was supposed to, it didn't bring younger audiences to Trek it just entertained existing audiences.
What I'm trying to say in the second quote is that there is very little advertisement for "Watch TOS on Paramount+ too!" Newer audiences aren't watching TOS because they don't know about/don't know how to watch it. Also more of a personal opinion.
Which is an assumption perhaps on the part of marketing that these newer products need the publicity, while TOS has 50 years of it, and is fairly well established in the public consciousness. The assumption may very well be we don't need to push this.
This is fairly typical marketing speak.
You're assuming that the newer audiences know anything about Star Trek other than "that guy with the weird ears."
No, that's about what I expect.
That doesn't make it a dumpster fire. It makes it (on some level) a failure, but not a dumpster fire. A dumpster fire is something that is bad on every conceivable level and though I'm not a massive PRO fan, I couldn't say that about it.
Now I understand where you're coming from. I feel that TOS is a better introduction to Trek than DIS or PIC or PRO.
Prodigy is better than I expected it to be and my 10-year-old niece is a huge fan of it.
I say this as a fan of Picard: I'd never show them that series first. PIC, like DS9, assumes you've seen TNG. Lower Decks is another one. It assumes if you're watching, you're a Star Trek junkie.
Yeah.
I say this as a fan of Picard: I'd never show them that series first. PIC, like DS9, assumes you've seen TNG. Lower Decks is another one. It assumes if you're watching, you're a Star Trek junkie.
I think much of Lower Decks or Picard would be incomprehensible to a newcomer.
Aren't most ST fans TNG (and DS9) fans? Don't most of those fans already disregard TOS?
As TNG/DS9/Voyager were created in the same era (1987-2001), they had a similar feel to them (same ST era, similar ships, enemies, star fleet, etc). They also targeted the same audience. TOS didn't really fit that mold really well.
Anyhow...
The new shows are clearly aiming for a wider more diverse audience base. They are not all targeting the same audience, but dividing it up (TOS era, TNG era, and new fans):
- Picard target audience are the TNG/DS9/Voyager fans.
So not new fans.
- Prodigy was meant to grab younger kids.
New fans here.
- Lower Decks has a bit of a Futurama/Simpsons feel to it, and a lot of older references, but has enough young people humor.
Some new fans here.
- Discovery...confusing mess. Started off trying to get classic Trek folks (Klingon war anyone?), then morphed into something pretty disconnected from all other Trek when going to the future.
This may possibly the biggest source of new fans.
- SNW...casts the widest net. It clearly targets the TOS group hard. Every episode is about something completely new, which makes it easier to get into. At the same time there are serialized aspects being brought along, but not to the point that you can't understand the episode without knowing the history. My wife watched the last Spock-T'Pring episode with me, and she enjoyed it as standalone episode without knowing the past or the future (she's not into Trek).
Another source of new fans.
So new fans...depends on where they come from:
- SNW really does the best job for new fans to be exposed to TOS and potentially revere it as do older folks.
- LD/Prodigy/Disco new fans will likely not be interested in TOS.
As TNG/DS9/Voyager were created in the same era (1987-2001), they had a similar feel to them (same ST era, similar ships, enemies, star fleet, etc). They also targeted the same audience. TOS didn't really fit that mold really well.
Anyhow...
The new shows are clearly aiming for a wider more diverse audience base. They are not all targeting the same audience, but dividing it up (TOS era, TNG era, and new fans):
- Picard target audience are the TNG/DS9/Voyager fans.
So not new fans.
- Prodigy was meant to grab younger kids.
New fans here.
- Lower Decks has a bit of a Futurama/Simpsons feel to it, and a lot of older references, but has enough young people humor.
Some new fans here.
- Discovery...confusing mess. Started off trying to get classic Trek folks (Klingon war anyone?), then morphed into something pretty disconnected from all other Trek when going to the future.
This may possibly the biggest source of new fans.
- SNW...casts the widest net. It clearly targets the TOS group hard. Every episode is about something completely new, which makes it easier to get into. At the same time there are serialized aspects being brought along, but not to the point that you can't understand the episode without knowing the history. My wife watched the last Spock-T'Pring episode with me, and she enjoyed it as standalone episode without knowing the past or the future (she's not into Trek).
Another source of new fans.
So new fans...depends on where they come from:
- SNW really does the best job for new fans to be exposed to TOS and potentially revere it as do older folks.
- LD/Prodigy/Disco new fans will likely not be interested in TOS.
We're talking about people who aren't fans who would be introduced to Star Trek for the first time.
Setting aside my own opinions of each show, this is how I see them in terms of approachability:
Total Novice
TOS, TAS, TNG, SNW, and PRO --> By-and-large, if you don't know anything about Star Trek at all, you could watch these series and there wouldn't be any problem. Yes, I know SNW follows up from DSC Season 2, but everything you would've needed to know from DSC is summed up in the first episode, without having to watch it. In the case of Prodigy, it has Janeway, but you don't need to have seen VOY. The audience is introduced to the Star Trek Universe as the kids in the show are being introduced to it. You're learning along with them.
Not a Total Novice
VOY, ENT, and DSC --> You don't need to be an Uber Trekkie, you just need to have a passing familiarity with Star Trek in general and you should be fine. Whatever you need to know, you're brought up to speed within the shows themselves.
Hardcore Fan
DS9, PIC, and LD --> If you're already familiar with everything up to when they were made, these are the shows for you. If not, you're going to struggle.
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Here's a question: Did anyone ever see Prodigy on Nick?
Because every time there was a new ep on Paramount+, I would check to see if it was playing on Nick and I never could find a single showing in the DFW area.
Maybe it wasn't supposed to be there??? but then what's the point of partnering with Nick if it wasn't?
Easy to fail to bring in kids if kids aren't actually being shown the show.
Because every time there was a new ep on Paramount+, I would check to see if it was playing on Nick and I never could find a single showing in the DFW area.
Maybe it wasn't supposed to be there??? but then what's the point of partnering with Nick if it wasn't?
Easy to fail to bring in kids if kids aren't actually being shown the show.
Not here in the Southwest AFAICT.
TNG and DS9 are not the most popular, accessible chapters of the franchise, so one can assume "most" ST fans would not identify as fans of either series before TOS.
The fans I knew growing up preferred TNG but I and others were much more TOS. Most people I talk to in the day to day think of TOS when talking Star Trek. Even my mom, who hates science fiction.
As for new fans, I think new fans will come in as they find something of interest to them, be it SF, or characters, or action or comedy. Whether or not they'll stick around comes down to how they feel like they can interact with the community.
It depends on your perspective. I love the original Star Trek. I mildly enjoy The Next Generation. So to me, it was the negative comments in this thread about original Star Trek that stood out and stung. I can see how the thread would read differently for a Next Generation fan. I will say that the thread strikes me as polarized. I may be overlooking or forgetting individual posts, but the general consensus seems to be that it's original Star Trek OR Next Generation that will maintain legendary status--or maybe neither--but not both.
Bear in mind that original, black and white Doctor Who is only three years older than original Star Trek. I think that alone says a lot about how special original Star Trek is, about the way it holds up and maintains its cultural significance relative to other televised science fiction and other shows of its time. And Doctor Who is actually one of the few shows that even comes close to competing with Star Trek as long-lasting, influential televised science fiction of generally recognized quality.
Very true. Even people who haven't watched any Star Trek have heard of "Beam me up, Scotty!" They've seen bad Shatner impressions in pop culture. They've heard Scotty impressions. They've heard of or at least can recognize Spock.
The Abrams Films helped boost TOS's profile among young people. They leaned too heavily on general perceptions, but they were also trying to get people to watch it in the theater by giving the audience what they wanted to see. I don't agree with it, and it's not what I would've done, but I can see why they decided to work with the myths people had in their heads instead of against them.
These days, someone who hasn't seen TNG is only going to recognize it if they see a meme on Facebook, or they probably know Patrick Stewart from the X-Men movies. TNG seeped into pop-culture references during the '90s, but nothing too much since to my knowledge. Otherwise, they would've had a TNG Reunion on the Big Screen instead of a safe haven on Paramount+. Granted, I prefer Streaming TV to Movies (at least until Barbie & Oppenheimer finally shook things up), so I'm glad things turned out the way they did but, my own personal preferences aside, the point stands.
With DS9, if you're not already a Trekkie, you've almost definitely never heard of it.
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