• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

WIll growing religiosity in the world by 2050 hurt science and space development?

No religion is reasonable.. they would still be burning people at the stake if morality did allow for that nowadays. :p
 
I think it can be proven that religious faith can be rationally accepted by those who believe it. I don't think such convictions are cognitive disorders or wish fulfillment but beliefs produced by a sound, thinking mind. You may not believe it but it is not inconceivable that an intelligent person could. That's not the same argument as trying to prove the existence of God.

As to why one religion is closer to the truth than another -there is no argument that proves that one religion can't be closer to the truth than another no more than it can proven that the Nazis were right and the rest of us wrong.
 
Last edited:
Why don’t they teach logic at these schools?”
At one point in the classic book The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis, an exasperated professor utters the words, “Logic! Why don’t they teach logic at these schools?” C.S. Lewis, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (Harper Trophy, 2000), p. 48.Lewis not only believed in truth, but also in our ability to use logic as an aid in determining truth.

Although it is true that logic studied as a formal discipline can lead to challenging formulas and diagrams, in a basic sense we all use it regularly. In reading this article, for example, you are using logic to interpret the words you see. Without logic, you could not make sense of this sentence. Interpreting a rational sentence requires a rational mind with the ability to comprehend words that are structured in a way that makes sense — in short, words that are organized logically.

Historically, Aristotle was the first to explore logic as a formal discipline, but he did not invent it. The underlying principles of logic are readily discernible. We use them every day to get through some of the simplest decisions and actions in life.

Logicians generally offer four broad principles or laws of logic.

First, the law of identity makes the obvious observation that something is itself and, therefore, cannot be something else (A is A).

Second, the law of non-contradiction deals with the concept of antithesis and states that something cannot be true and not true at the same time and in the same sense (A is not non-A).

Third, the law of excluded middle is often presented as “either A or non-A.” For instance, God either exists or He does not exist.

Fourth, the law of bivalence assesses propositions as either being true or false. “God exists” is either a true or a false statement. Space does not allow a thorough analysis of logic or its foundations. For a general introduction to the topic see Come, Let Us Reason: An Introduction to Logical Thinking by Norman Geisler and Ronald Brooks (Baker, 1990) and the standard textbook on the subject, Introduction to Logic by Irving Copi and Carl Cohen (Prentice Hall, 2004). Copi and Cohen, incidentally, define logic as “the study of the methods and principles used to distinguish good (correct) from bad (incorrect) reasoning” (p. 3, eighth edition).

Furthermore, the Bible is not against logic. In fact, biblical Christianity encourages the use of the mind. In Isaiah 1:18 (NIV) we read, “‘Come now, let us reason together,’ says the LORD.” In the New Testament Jesus is clear that we are to love God — not only with all our heart, soul, and strength, but also with our mind (Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27).

Christians are also called to defend the truth by appealing to reason and evidence (Acts 26:25; 1 Peter 3:15). Acts 1:3, for example, says Jesus “gave many convincing proofs” as evidence for His resurrection. In Acts 26:25-26, after the Apostle Paul gives his testimony and outlines the gospel message, he is accused of being insane. Paul replies: “What I am saying is true and reasonable. The king is familiar with these things, and I can speak freely to him. I am convinced that none of this has escaped his notice, because it was not done in a corner.”

In Acts 26, Paul uses logic to make his case for Christianity. He appeals to his own experiential testimony (noting how he used to persecute Christians), makes mention of the resurrection of Christ, and implies that many are aware of the events surrounding the gospel of Christ. Logically, Paul believes the Christian message because of the evidence, both experiential (his encounter with Christ) and evidential (the case for the resurrection, for instance, and the testimony of witnesses).

First Peter 3:15 also appeals to logic: “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” The Greek word translated as “answer” is apologia and was used in reference to giving a legal defense. In this passage, Peter calls readers “to give the reason for the hope that you have.” Reasons presuppose the validity of reason and logic.

The appeal in Acts 1:3 to “many convincing proofs” again relates to logic because a reasonable appeal is made to the evidence for the resurrection. In other words, Luke, the author of Acts, is not asking for blind faith, but faith founded on logical inferences. The New Testament records that many people saw Christ after his death, that Christ proved he was raised bodily by eating food and by inviting doubting Thomas to touch him (John 21:12-13; Luke 24:38-43). These are all logical appeals to evidence and reason.

As a former atheist, C.S. Lewis was well aware of the role that reason played in his conversion to Christianity. That’s why he offered reasonable, logical arguments in support of his beliefs. In doing so, Lewis often utilized what is known as abductive reasoning. Abductive reasoning is similar to reasoning used by the scientific community in that it uses reasonable evidence to come to the best explanation.

In making his case for Christianity, Lewis used abductive reasoning to argue that the Christian explanation of reality — the Christian worldview — is more reasonable and probable than the alternatives.

C.S. Lewis used abductive reasoning to argue that the Christian explanation of reality — the Christian worldview — is more reasonable and probable than the alternatives. (Recall that abductive reasoning is similar to reasoning used by scientists in that it uses reasonable evidence to come to the best explanation.)

Now I’ll take a closer look at two of Lewis’ key arguments that use abductive reasoning:

  • The argument from Christ
  • The argument from longing
God or a Poached Egg?
Jesus once asked his disciples, “Who do people say I am?” After hearing a few replies, he put forth a more pointed and personal question: “‘But what about you?’ he asked. ‘Who do you say I am?'” (Mark 8:27-29).

In exploring the alternatives regarding the claims of Christ, Lewis used abductive reasoning to conclude that the most probable explanation is that Jesus is who He said He was. In Mere Christianity, Lewis provides a brief presentation of his argument: “I’m trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse.” C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity (Macmillan, 1960), pp. 55-56. Lewis also explores this issue in some of his other writings such as in “What Are We to Make of Jesus Christ?” in God in the Dock (Eerdmans, 1970).

Beyond some biblical hints at such reasoning (John 8:48-49 and John 10:33), the core of this argument goes back to Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 263-339), who outlined it in Demonstratio Evangelica (“Proof of the Gospel”). Lewis popularized the argument in Mere Christianity. Since then, several apologists have expanded it to include other alternatives beyond the traditional “Lord, Liar, or Lunatic?” options. Contemporary works that address the argument from Christ include Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli (InterVarsity, 1994), “Was Jesus Mad, Bad, or God?” by Stephen T. Davis in The Incarnation (Oxford, 2002), and Without a Doubt by Kenneth Samples (Baker, 2004).Based on the evidence and the truth of the Bible, these apologists, like Lewis, conclude that the most reasonable explanation is that Jesus is who He claimed to be.

Longing for “The Real Thing”
Another line of reasoning Lewis used is called the argument from longing or desire. In it, he not only makes the case for God, but also the case for heaven.

Lewis believed that everyone experiences sensations of desire and longing. We may spend a lifetime trying to fulfill these desires by pursuing earthly pleasures such as taking vacations, moving from one sexual partner to another, or trying different hobbies — “always thinking that the latest is ‘The Real Thing’ at last — yet always ending up disappointed.”

Our experience tells us, Lewis continues, that “Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. A baby feels hunger: well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim: well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire: well, there is such a thing as sex.” C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, p. 119-120.

How, then, can we explain deep inner longings that we have that nothing in this world seems to satisfy? Of course, it would make sense to begin by demonstrating that human beings do indeed have these longings. Some might argue that not everyone does have these desires or that they really do not point to God. Lewis disagreed, though, arguing that our longings for the ‘other’ — even though they may manifest themselves in different ways, such as material pursuits — are really longings for the transcendent joy that is found in God alone. For a thorough presentation and defense of Lewis’ argument from longing see Peter Kreeft’s essay, “C.S. Lewis’s Argument from Desire,” in G.K. Chesterton and C.S. Lewis: The Riddle of Joy (Eerdmans, 1989), pp. 249-272.

The fact that we have this longing, combined with the fact that nothing on earth can truly satisfy it, led Lewis to this reasonable conclusion: “If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.” Ibid, p. 120.

True and Reasonable
In The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, the professor concludes that a little girl named Lucy is telling the truth about her claims to have visited a world called Narnia. He does this by using abductive reasoning. The professor rationally explores the alternative explanations and concludes that they are unlikely. “For the moment then and unless any further evidence turns up,” argues the professor, “we must assume that she is telling the truth.” C.S. Lewis, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (Harper Trophy, 2000), p. 48. By the way, the reasoning of the professor presented in this section of the book parallels Lewis’ logic in his argument from Christ.

In making the case for Christianity, we, too, can use logic such as abductive reasoning. If we can provide arguments and evidence that Christianity is more reasonable and probable than other explanations of reality, then it is rational to conclude — “for the moment and unless any further evidence turns up” — that Christianity is, as the apostle Paul said, “true and reasonable” (Acts 26:25). This does not mean that faith has no value or role in Christian belief, but it does mean that Paul’s faith was founded in a reasonable God, even though His actions might not always appear reasonable from our limited perspective.
I said "get back to me when you have a good argument. "Because C.S. Lewis said so" is not a good argument, and you're still not relating it to the issue of religious interference in teaching science in schools.

Pico Fermi prevailing, that might be true but for different reasons. Still, the nihilistic approach is unpalatable at best and the ultimate hypocrisy at its worst and it's not worth ascribing to.

There are also far bigger reasons than what a person may or may not believe in that will have a greater impact on the space industry anyway, as people of various faiths are all working in the program in good faith, alongside the laws of physics in terms of propulsion and all that. Makes one hypothesize and wonder if there are larger reasons why other inhabitable worlds, of which maybe one might have been discovered in amongst every last star and planet charted or discovered so far, are so far distant.
Obviously the Drake Equation might have been a little optimistic and needs to be tweaked. Such is the way of science; unlike religion, science is willing and able to be corrected when new information comes along.

As for habitable planets, who says they have to be habitable by humans? The reason the Cassini probe was deliberately sent to crash into Saturn rather than Enceladus is because the scientists studying the data from Enceladus concluded that it's possible that life may exist there and they didn't want the probe to contaminate anything.

That's a pretty spurious way to equivocate teaching creation and teaching evolution.

A theory can't be definitively proven because logistically impossible to create the conditions to test it is not the same thing a theory that can't be disproven because it's written to be immune to disproof.

First, I can prove that evolution is an ongoing process, the fact that you need a new flu vaccine every year proves it. Second, evolution as the means of creating mankind isn't only based on something somebody wrote down thousands of years ago. Based on proof that evolution is an ongoing process and species are constantly changing, and fossil records, and geological records, evolution is the simplest explanation of all the things we've observed.

Evolution is consistent with everything we can empirically observe, and if I found evidence that contradicted evolution, I would no longer believe evolution.

We can empirically observe the world is billions of years old, rather than 6000, that life existed well more than 6000 years ago, and that all the life forms that exist now did not always exist.

As for Christian philosophy being applied to moral reasoning, that's fine. For many people it leads toward exclusion and social gatekeeping, but not inherently. As long as it's taught alongside other moral systems and not touted as THE moral system. And I hope you can at least see the problems with teaching one religion as fact in a public school filled with many different children with many different religions.
Or children with no religions. It's been over 40 years since I took Grade 10 biology, and I sincerely hope that high school biology textbooks no longer include a statement to the gist of "We are required to discuss the theory of evolution in this textbook, and apologize to any students who are offended."

It makes me wonder if whoever chose that book might have picked the books intended for the Catholic school system, rather than the public school system. A statement like that has no place in any science textbook.
 
A few remarks about this post.

I think it can be proven that religious faith can be rationally accepted by those who believe it.
You can prove that something can be the case by producing only one example when it is so. So, yeah, granted, there is a religious belief that can be rationally held. On the flip side, there are numerous examples of religious beliefs that are held as a consequence of mental disorders.

I don't think such convictions are cognitive disorders or wish fulfillment but beliefs produced by a sound, thinking mind. You may not believe it but it is not inconceivable that an intelligent person could. That's not the same argument as trying to prove the existence of God.

As to the other part:

As to why one religion is closer to the truth than another -there is no argument that proves that one religion can't be closer to the truth than another no more than it can proven that the Nazis were right and the rest of us wrong.
Well, first of all, an atheist might well argue that all theistic belief systems are equally far from the truth (it doesn't get farther than flat-out false, nor are there degrees of total falsity). That aside, your being unaware of any counterargument to your case that you might consider viable doesn't help prove your case one whit. As to your invocation of the Nazis, frankly, that part of your sentence is a muddled mess; you might have one or more missing/wrong words, possibly including a missing "not" and "be". In any case, it's a real head-scratcher as to what value in the first place that invoking Nazis might have to what you are trying to say.
 
And then Christians came along and literally burned it all when it did not conform to their idealogy or morality.



That may be changing

Although an interest in space exploration may be understood by some evangelicals as demonstrating a lack of faith, there do exist outliers for whom exploration of space is seen as reinforcing and stemming from religious faith. Ambrosius has conducted interviews with a Bible study leader named Steve King, for example, who believes humanity’s future is in outer space, and that it is the destiny of human beings to colonize the far reaches of the universe...

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/3310/1
 
As an atheist, I have FAR less concern about the effects of religiosity on scientific progress, as I do the cultural trend toward outright science denial
One of the principles of scientific thinking is skepticism.
Yeah yeah whatever
Loving it.
Can your god create a ham sandwich in front of me right now? I could go and make one myself, but I'm feeling lazy. I'd like your god to do it..
Every person who fails to make you a sandwich doesn't exist?
 
One of the principles of scientific thinking is skepticism.
One of the principles of medicine is 1st do no harm, but if it was the only principle, we'd never treat anything. When flat earth BS, which I have to assume started as a gag, gains legitimate momentum, clearly there's a problem. That's why I used the word denial.
 
One of the principles of scientific thinking is skepticism.Loving it.Every person who fails to make you a sandwich doesn't exist?
Only if they claim to be divine and don't take the opportunity to prove to me they're real (it's a simple enough test, I should think; it's not like I asked for all my medical conditions to be magically cured, though that would be nice, too).
 
flat earth BS
I hold that the Earth is a imperfect sphere, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest that other think it ito be flat.

If I might ask, why does it (apparently) cause you problems that some people think it to be flat? Their thinking such doesn't change the planet's shape, so why be concerned?

I honestly don't understand why this bothers people.
 
I hold that the Earth is a imperfect sphere, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest that other think it ito be flat.

If I might ask, why does it (apparently) cause you problems that some people think it to be flat? Their thinking such doesn't change the planet's shape, so why be concerned?

I honestly don't understand why this bothers people.
People can hold influence on other people's lives. They vote. They go into politics & government. They attain notoriety enough to spread their ignorance, & warp the progress of the species, in an age where it's never been easier to do so, & if nothing else, they create a dynamic that requires the science community waste their precious time & resources combatting & arguing against backwards thinking, instead of more preferably using their limited means to forward it, like they're supposed to do

They're holding us back dude. Sometimes I think deliberately just because of fear, & spite
 
Guess I just don't see it, YMMV.
So a deliberately dumbed-down populace doesn't bother you?

This is a problem where I live, as the current provincial government is run by a bunch of yahoos who want to put religion back into science classes, remove age-appropriate sex education, and labels anything to do with climate change being something that is real as "radicalized ideology" (seriously, the Minister of Advanced Education said that). The Minister of Education goes on Facebook rants, screeching about any public school teacher who dares to hint that climate change is real, and doesn't have a clue that it's actually something that's in the curriculum because the former Conservative government put it there prior to 2015 (the year that we had our first non-right-wing government in 80 years).

So yeah, crackpots advocating that Earth is flat is a problem, because they stir up nonsense and then some of them want it taught in schools as an "alternative theory."
 
God created man and man created God. But the two Gods are not the same thing.

I don't believe growing "religiosity" will hurt science and space development. Even in the Middle Ages or the beginning of the scientific revolution, when religion was what people at large believed, there were always people and political leaders willing to invest time and resources into scientific advances. Today there are many more motivations for science and technology to develop (business development and growth for eg.). So religious dogma and belief is not going to stop nor reverse any scientific advances. In fact, I can see the two informing each other through a co-evolutionary process which also feeds into and continues to influence global civilizational culture.

People in the subcontinent are strongly religious. But this doesn't stop or interfere with scientific advancement, investment nor belief in science. What was and is remains a challenge is funding. The richer the society grows, we find many more institutions of higher learning setup as well as the spread and growth of existing institutions. All the while, the religious traditions remain strong. There is little or no conflict between religious belief and tradition and the scientific process or methods or understanding. There is far more inter-religious conflict, fueled of course, not by the general public but by miscreants and by politicians who may attempt to use peoples' faith and belief toward their own political ends. That largely fails though.
 
I can understand small children who were indoctrinated growing into adulthood believing in Abrahamic religions, but any reasonable adult walking into a religion that basically says "invisible people love you but will kill you if you don't do what they say" is going to become at least neurotic if not psychotic before it's all over.

In either case, these are not people you want running things if you want a decent science/space program.
 
So a deliberately dumbed-down populace doesn't bother you?
No it doesn't bother me in the least, how does it impact anything if a fraction of the population thinks the world flat? I don't see what you mean by "deliberate," Globes in schools are still common, To most people the shape of the world is a piece of background minutiae, that doesn't affect their daily lives.

If I had to attach a word to flat-earthers, it would probably be "charming."
these are not people you want running things if you want a decent science/space program.
You want people who are good administrators, mathematicians and engineers, being a-religious shouldn't be a requirement.

When America launched it's first manned orbital flight, do you honestly thing it impaired the working of the spacecraft when backup astronaut Scott Carpenter famously spoke the words “Godspeed, John Glenn?'
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top