Will Before Dishonors Ending Affect Voyager books? Spoilers!

[Brit]

Question:

If the editors decided to kill off a major character then why was Janeway chosen? Why not Picard? Why is Janeway expendable? Could it be that all the "Trek" writers can't write to a strong female character? There are very few characters in Trek that female readers can identify with and the decision was made to kill of one of those characters?

Has Pocket Books and the "Trek" series made the decision that female readers don't count? Because that is certainly the impression given here.

The bottom line in any industry is all money and this decision is going to cost the publishers money.

The killing of Janeway was stupid, it was wasted in a story line that didn't need her death. It was used to promote a species villain that for all purposes is already dead. The Borg are old news.

Brit

 

[Christopher]

If the editors decided to kill off a major character then why was Janeway chosen? Why not Picard? Why is Janeway expendable? Could it be that all the "Trek" writers can't write to a strong female character?

Are you kidding me? Have you read any Trek lit recently? The books are loaded with strong female characters, far more so than the shows ever were. The books have embraced the portrayal of canon characters like Uhura, Saavik, Troi, Kira, Ezri, Hoshi, Elizabeth Shelby, Sonya Gomez, and Melora Pazlar, often portraying them in a stronger light than they ever got to be portrayed onscreen. And they've created many new strong female characters such as Rana Desai, T'Prynn, Kat Mueller, Domenica Corsi, Christine Vale, and Dr. B'oraq. A large percentage of Trek novelists have always been female -- indeed, female authors dominated the field in its early decades. And the editor who made the choice to kill off Janeway is a woman, Margaret Clark.

So since gender is clearly irrelevant, what other differences might there be between Picard and Janeway? Could it have something to do with the fact that TNG is a vastly more popular series than VGR ever was? Could it have something to do with the fact that Janeway was promoted out of the captain's chair by the movies and wasn't playing as active a role in the novels anymore? Or maybe it's simply that it's what the story demanded.

There are very few characters in Trek that female readers can identify with...

Again, I have to ask... do you read Trek books at all? Are you aware that the current command crew of the Enterprise-E in the novels is 2/3 female?

 

[Therin of Andor]

There are very few characters in Trek that female readers can identify with and the decision was made to kill of one of those characters?

Huh?

And I would point out that there are also female fans who really dislike Janeway and her sometimes dubious decision-making in VOY.

 

[CommanderTroi]

[/quote] There are very few characters in Trek that female readers can identify with...

Again, I have to ask... do you read Trek books at all? Are you aware that the current command crew of the Enterprise-E in the novels is 2/3 female?

Sorry to ask, but what has the Enterprise-E got to do with Voyager? I'm a huge Next Gen fan so I enjoy the new characters very much (/cheer T'Ryssa), but I think most Voyager fans will not have even noticed that Kathy is dead, just until the next VGR installment, and then they'll probably be very sad and very disappointed.
And please don't tell me the story requested Janeway to die, I don't think so...
But that's just imho

 

[PaulSimpson]

Sorry to ask, but what has the Enterprise-E got to do with Voyager? I'm a huge Next Gen fan so I enjoy the new characters very much (/cheer T'Ryssa), but I think most Voyager fans will not have even noticed that Kathy is dead, just until the next VGR installment, and then they'll probably be very sad and very disappointed.
And please don't tell me the story requested Janeway to die, I don't think so...
But that's just imho

Are there really that many Voyager fans whose sole interest in Star Trek books is the Voyager tie-ins?

 

[Christopher]

Sorry to ask, but what has the Enterprise-E got to do with Voyager?

The claim I was responding to wasn't about VGR. The original poster said there were few characters in all of Star Trek that female readers could identify with, and I was offering evidence that disproves that allegation, at least where Trek literature is concerned. The OP also accused us Trek authors of being either unable or unwilling to write strong female characters, and the current composition of the E-E crew is one of many pieces of evidence that emphatically disprove that accusation.

 

[Leaf]

Sorry to ask, but what has the Enterprise-E got to do with Voyager? I'm a huge Next Gen fan so I enjoy the new characters very much (/cheer T'Ryssa), but I think most Voyager fans will not have even noticed that Kathy is dead, just until the next VGR installment, and then they'll probably be very sad and very disappointed.
And please don't tell me the story requested Janeway to die, I don't think so...
But that's just imho

Are there really that many Voyager fans whose sole interest in Star Trek books is the Voyager tie-ins?

Sure. I know a few.

You shoulda seen them when Before Dishonour came out... the nerdrage was epic.

 

[PaulSimpson]

Sorry to ask, but what has the Enterprise-E got to do with Voyager? I'm a huge Next Gen fan so I enjoy the new characters very much (/cheer T'Ryssa), but I think most Voyager fans will not have even noticed that Kathy is dead, just until the next VGR installment, and then they'll probably be very sad and very disappointed.
And please don't tell me the story requested Janeway to die, I don't think so...
But that's just imho

Are there really that many Voyager fans whose sole interest in Star Trek books is the Voyager tie-ins?

Sure. I know a few.

You shoulda seen them when Before Dishonour came out... the nerdrage was epic.

How did they know if the VOY stories were their only interest?

 

[Leaf]

Are there really that many Voyager fans whose sole interest in Star Trek books is the Voyager tie-ins?

Sure. I know a few.

You shoulda seen them when Before Dishonour came out... the nerdrage was epic.

How did they know if the VOY stories were their only interest?

They hung out with regular fans too. Word got around Kathy was in the new book so they went out an got copies.

 

[BryanSorensen]

[/quote]Again, I have to ask... do you read Trek books at all? Are you aware that the current command crew of the Enterprise-E in the novels is 2/3 female?[/quote]
Worf and Geordi were talking about this in GTTS too. Geordi was making a comment that they were outnumbered now, and how crusher and troi must have felt that way on the big D. i thought it was quite amusing anyway. I do agree there with Chris about brits comment. There are several female characters in the trek books, several are key personel. So i think any one of them could be someone to have young female readers to aspire to!

 

[CommanderTroi]

Sorry to ask, but what has the Enterprise-E got to do with Voyager?

The claim I was responding to wasn't about VGR. The original poster said there were few characters in all of Star Trek that female readers could identify with, and I was offering evidence that disproves that allegation, at least where Trek literature is concerned. The OP also accused us Trek authors of being either unable or unwilling to write strong female characters, and the current composition of the E-E crew is one of many pieces of evidence that emphatically disprove that accusation.

Oh I'm sorry, thought it was just concerning Voyager...
As for strong female characters in Trek literature, I really cannot say that the authors seem unwilling or unable to write them, some of the strongest and best characters in current TrekLit are female, but they don't make a big deal out of it, as it is very common in the 24th century for women to be in command or other dominant positions I assume. But killing off one of the few strong women of the shows is a pitty...But I guess I just relax and see what happens in future novels

 

[Christopher]

As for strong female characters in Trek literature, I really cannot say that the authors seem unwilling or unable to write them, some of the strongest and best characters in current TrekLit are female, but they don't make a big deal out of it, as it is very common in the 24th century for women to be in command or other dominant positions I assume. But killing off one of the few strong women of the shows is a pitty...

But that's just it -- being truly equal means you don't get special exemptions. It means you not only get the same opportunities but face the same risks. So dwelling on the fact that the lead character who died happens to be female is missing the whole point.

 

[Leaf]

But that's just it -- being truly equal means you don't get special exemptions. It means you not only get the same opportunities but face the same risks. So dwelling on the fact that the lead character who died happens to be female is missing the whole point.

The people in the books are equal, but the people buying and reading them are not. The audience is what you have to keep in mind, and an audience that sees the famous Star Trek captains Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Archer (and Calhoun, and Gold, and Riker, and that Vanguard guy if they read the books) all present and accounted for while the woman is dead is going to react to it according to their 21st century experiences. You can't blame them for crying foul.

 

[Brit]

Sorry to ask, but what has the Enterprise-E got to do with Voyager? I'm a huge Next Gen fan so I enjoy the new characters very much (/cheer T'Ryssa), but I think most Voyager fans will not have even noticed that Kathy is dead, just until the next VGR installment, and then they'll probably be very sad and very disappointed.
And please don't tell me the story requested Janeway to die, I don't think so...
But that's just imho

Are there really that many Voyager fans whose sole interest in Star Trek books is the Voyager tie-ins?

Hundreds, for instance Kate Mulgrew came to "Voyager" with her own fan base, people that had never seen another episode of Trek, actually did watch "Voyager". There seems to be a discounting of this part of the Janeway and Voyager fandom. It exists and is real, and it's pretty pissed.

Christopher Bennett asked if I have ever read a Trek Book, why would anyone assume that since I do not support Janeway's death that I obviously don't read Trek books?

Chris, I went to your site and by a little extrapolating you are probably in your late thirties (I could be wrong so you are welcome to correct). Using this estimate, I was buying and reading Trek books since before you were born.

We did a somewhat incomplete inventory not counting the books hiding in storage but in about ten minutes here we counted over 100 Trek novels, including the earlest originals written. We have a large precentage of the Trek reference books, including several of the role playing game manuals. I own a first edition set of the Original Series Blue prints, and the original edition of the Original Series Tech Manual.

In other words I have been a Trek fan since September 8, 1966.

You can pick out all the females in the Trek novels you want, but it makes no difference, because Janeway belongs to the actual televised "Voyager" series. The character and her fans should have been given more respect than a villain's death in another Trek series novel.

Brit

 

[Defcon]

Christopher Bennett asked if I have ever read a Trek Book,

Wrong, what he asked was:

Have you read any Trek lit recently?

Emphasis mine.

And the rest of your answer indicates that you have read more of the older novles than the more recent nes, so I guess his question was a valid one.

You can pick out all the females in the Trek novels you want, but it makes no difference, because Janeway belongs to the actual televised "Voyager" series. The character and her fans should have been given more respect than a villain's death in another Trek series novel.

If the novels are so insignificant that it doesn't make a difference that the novels show strong female characters, why are you so upset that Janeway was killed in one of those insignificant novels?

 

[Brit]

Christopher Bennett asked if I have ever read a Trek Book,

Wrong, what he asked was:

Have you read any Trek lit recently?

Emphasis mine.

"Death in Winter"

The String Theory books and the Spirit Walk Books, we dropped out of the Deep Space Nine books after what was done to the Trill, which is just about as bad as Janeway's death.

Brit

 

[Christopher]

The people in the books are equal, but the people buying and reading them are not. The audience is what you have to keep in mind, and an audience that sees the famous Star Trek captains Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Archer (and Calhoun, and Gold, and Riker, and that Vanguard guy if they read the books) all present and accounted for while the woman is dead is going to react to it according to their 21st century experiences. You can't blame them for crying foul.

Crying foul about a single character's demise is one thing, but it goes far beyond that when someone makes insulting and provably false accusations about the entire line of Trek literature and the people who write it. Saying "I don't like it that Janeway died" is valid. Saying "Janeway died because Trek literature is written by a bunch of sexist pigs who detest strong women" is a blatant falsehood and a direct attack on the character of my colleagues and myself. And I'm entirely within my rights to present the concrete facts that disprove that broader accusation.

 

[PaulSimpson]

Sorry to ask, but what has the Enterprise-E got to do with Voyager? I'm a huge Next Gen fan so I enjoy the new characters very much (/cheer T'Ryssa), but I think most Voyager fans will not have even noticed that Kathy is dead, just until the next VGR installment, and then they'll probably be very sad and very disappointed.
And please don't tell me the story requested Janeway to die, I don't think so...
But that's just imho

Are there really that many Voyager fans whose sole interest in Star Trek books is the Voyager tie-ins?

Hundreds, for instance Kate Mulgrew came to "Voyager" with her own fan base, people that had never seen another episode of Trek, actually did watch "Voyager". There seems to be a discounting of this part of the Janeway and Voyager fandom. It exists and is real, and it's pretty pissed.

Christopher Bennett asked if I have ever read a Trek Book, why would anyone assume that since I do not support Janeway's death that I obviously don't read Trek books?

Chris, I went to your site and by a little extrapolating you are probably in your late thirties (I could be wrong so you are welcome to correct). Using this estimate, I was buying and reading Trek books since before you were born.

We did a somewhat incomplete inventory not counting the books hiding in storage but in about ten minutes here we counted over 100 Trek novels, including the earlest originals written. We have a large precentage of the Trek reference books, including several of the role playing game manuals. I own a first edition set of the Original Series Blue prints, and the original edition of the Original Series Tech Manual.

In other words I have been a Trek fan since September 8, 1966.

You can pick out all the females in the Trek novels you want, but it makes no difference, because Janeway belongs to the actual televised "Voyager" series. The character and her fans should have been given more respect than a villain's death in another Trek series novel.

Brit

And there's a lot of people on this board, me included, who have read and got all the Trek tie-in books and have seen the books go through some incredible highs and lows. We're in a period now where the books are allowed to matter in the Star Trek timeline - Destiny being simply a case in point. And part of the reason for that is that there's a shared continuity, and a shared sense of jeopardy

But the fundamental point is: as with any tie-in book, you can choose to accept it or not. If Bill Shatner writes another novel in his 24th Century Kirk series, there's a good chance he won't include Janeway's death. The timeline being outlined for the online game is differing from the Pocket Books timeline so chances are Janeway's still around. Doctor Who fans still chafe about an equivalent happenstance in the books when a planet blown up on screen was shown not to have been destroyed - but most people ignore it. In the shared continuity (not "another Trek series" but the 24th century Star Trek universe), Janeway is dead; not on screen. (the devil in me makes me add - not yet anyway) In the shared continuity, Trip Tucker is alive; not on screen...

Paul

 

[Thrawn]

Christopher Bennett asked if I have ever read a Trek Book,

Wrong, what he asked was:

Have you read any Trek lit recently?

Emphasis mine.

And the rest of your answer indicates that you have read more of the older novles than the more recent nes, so I guess his question was a valid one.

You can pick out all the females in the Trek novels you want, but it makes no difference, because Janeway belongs to the actual televised "Voyager" series. The character and her fans should have been given more respect than a villain's death in another Trek series novel.

If the novels are so insignificant that it doesn't make a difference that the novels show strong female characters, why are you so upset that Janeway was killed in one of those insignificant novels?

I agree with this last point emphatically. Brit, it seems to me you're trying to introduce a somewhat bizarre double standard. Either the novels matter or they don't.

These same novels that killed off Janeway (or made her a Q, or something) also promoted Kira and kept her in command of DS9, promoted Shelby to an Admiral before Calhoun, replaced most of the Ent-E command crew with outstanding female characters (well, and one that I hate, but that's rather irrelevant to this conversation), and elevated several throwaway female characters from the show into much stronger, more interesting people (Shelby again, Lefler, Rager, Melora, etc.) But if all THAT doesn't matter, why does killing off Janeway?

Kate Mulgrew and all of her fans, those that enjoy her onscreen work, can rejoice in that onscreen work from now until the end of time. As far as the novels are concerned, all characters are created equal; whether or not they were onscreen has little relevance. And neither does their gender. Janeway was killed, as far as I see it, because a story about her crew reacting to her death and moving on would be much more interesting than Lame Excuse #7 for her position in the Admiralty to somehow involve her taking command of Voyager for a while.

Would you have been happier if the Voyager tie-in novels continued without her in any significant capacity (which they would've eventually had to do anyway) with her still being alive? This way, her character's death gets to make a real impact, instead of just slowly fading out of importance.

 

[ShinRa Actual]

On a lighter note...

Expecting Janeway to be turned into a Q is kind of like expecting Porthos or Spot to be given a Starfleet commission.

Sounds like a great concept. Anthology please, "Myriad Universes: Pet Trek" (: