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WHY

I don't know enough about Buffy to comment, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that one reason why it might do episodes like a musical or whatever is because with a season of 20 episodes they can afford to have throw-away or filler episodes. Meanwhile Doctor Who only has 13 episodes (with indications that number may be going down in future years). They have to make every episode count.

And this isn't even fair. The Buffy musical episode was anything but a filler episode. It was actually incredibly important to the arc of the season, and it had lasting consequences and show-changing revelations. The fact that it was a musical was secondary to the plot. Maybe it was a gimmick, but it was a gimmick done extremely well.

Gimmicks are fine. I have no problem with them, but they need to be handled properly. I wouldn't even say that musicals are gimmicks. They're a legitimate form of storytelling.

If you're going to make Doctor Who a female, do it for an episode and then change him back. If you decide to later to make an entire incarnation of the Doctor a female, then at least there's precedent for it. "Well, he's been a girl before." If you do it now, though, without that precedent, I think it's just going to be awkward because of how long the character has been male.
 
-making the Doctor a glove puppet? Permanently, that would get very old very fast. But for a one-off? A special episode in which the whole story is done with sock puppets? Hell, Buffy made a whole episode a Broadway musical, I don't see why an episode of Doctor Who couldn't be sock puppets. It wouldn't be any sillier than Deep Space Nine's tribble episode.

If you like sock puppets so much, you could always check out the Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppet Theatre on YouTube. Hell, they've done plenty of Doctor Who parodies, and even a Torchwood parody. Two of their Doctor Who parodies have even been included on the DVDs of The War Games and The Horns of Nimon (as easter eggs). They'll also have a parody on the upcoming DVD of The Dominators.

Why do Buffy and Star Trek have more guts than Doctor Who?
I don't know enough about Buffy to comment, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that one reason why it might do episodes like a musical or whatever is because with a season of 20 episodes they can afford to have throw-away or filler episodes. Meanwhile Doctor Who only has 13 episodes (with indications that number may be going down in future years). They have to make every episode count.

Now tell me, in what way does Star Trek have "more guts" than Doctor Who? Is it because of your earlier example, that they did something different for Enterprise's theme? Not only was it a mistake for Enterprise, but it would be wrong for Doctor Who to replace the theme. The Doctor Who theme is as iconic and integral to the show as the TARDIS itself, or even the Daleks. And besides, it's a kick-ass theme.

Anyway, Doctor Who seems to have more guts than Star Trek. Doctor Who changes its cast and has continuing story arcs. Meanwhile, every Star Trek series has kept 99% of its cast from beginning to end, and with the exception of DS9's and Enterprise's final two seasons, consists entirely of stand-alone episodes with the odd two-parter spriklned in, usually as a season cliffhanger.

Also, Doctor Who features openly gay and bisexual characters, while Star Trek only features lesbians as a means of showing how different the Mirror Universe is.

Oh, I agree with you that Doctor Who, at least the new series, has been better than Star Trek when it comes to positive portrayals of homosexuals, and number of prominent black characters, and things of that sort - I have absolutely no complaints there.

But Doctor Who is and always has been much more limited and conservative than Star Trek when it comes to stories and story structures. Doctor Who has been telling the same 2 or 3 stories over and over again for decades. They don't vary much. There are formulas, and the writers stick passionately to them. There's always a monster, for one. Why can't they travel to the past or the future and encounter some kind of social or psychological or technological problem, rather than always a rubber-suited or CGI bug-eyed monster? The Doctor (and the show) can literally travel anywhere they want through time and space, and yet the FORM of the show has almost never taken advantage of those parameters, or that freedom.

I mean, listen to this thread - the writers should, within the parameters of the show, be able to write anything we can imagine in the universe, in space, time, reality, and beyond, dealing potentially with all the possibilities of existence, and yet the suggestion that the mere gender of the protagonist can change (something so far perfectly allowable by the science within the show) is scoffed at as a silly gimmick. For a show that can travel through all of reality (and occasionally outside of reality), its story formulas are extremely, even shockingly, stringent. I would even go so far as to say that Doctor Who, as a franchise, has almost never lived up to its own potential, given its premise. (And I am a huge fan of the show nonetheless.)
 
-A porn episode? Not possible on BBC. Although an episode that deals directly with intensely sexual themes may not be a bad change of pace.

It would be a bad change of pace. Doctor Who is not for us adults, first and foremost. First and foremost, it's for children. There's nothing wrong with Doctor Who addressing sexuality, as it has ever since the Series One. But just like its depictions of violence should always be mediated, so too should its depictions of sexuality. It should never be that intense.

You say "guts", I say "gimmicks".
shrug.gif


If they EVER let Hack Whedon near Doctor Who, the show would be dead to me. I need proper writing, not pop-culture-laced,choreographed tweeny fights... :lol: :rolleyes:

You have no idea what you're talking about.

I dare anyone to watch "The Body" (from Buffy 5x16), or "A Hole in the World" (Angel 5x15), or "Objects in Space" (Firefly 1x15) and claim with a straight face that Whedon is a hack. Or, for Buffy: "Surprise/Innocence." Or "Becoming, Parts I & II." Or "The Wish," or "Amends," or, "Bad Girls," or "Graduation Day, Parts I & II," or "Hush," or "Restless," or "Fool for Love," or "The Gift," or "Once More, With Feeling," or "Selfless," or "Conversations With Dead People." Or, for Angel, "Five by Five/Sanctuary," or "Dad," or "Waiting in the Wings," or "Soulless," or "Peace Out," or "Home," or "Lineage," or "You're Welcome," or "Shells," or "Power Play," or "Not Fade Away." Or, for Firefly, "Serenity," or "Our Mrs. Reynolds," or "Out of Gas," or "The Message."

Fact is, Whedon's work resembles what most Doctor Who fans around here claim they want DW to be more like. Whedon's work is smart, is melancholy, is marked by smart and deep characterization, is always thematically resonant, and it's very much written for adults.

I agree that Whedon really shouldn't write for Doctor Who, but that's because his tone is too intense for it. He doesn't mediate himself for child audiences. He goes for your adult heart and breaks it.

Yes, I've pretty much seen every Doctor Who episode ever made. The Five and Three Doctors are "anniversary shows", not gimmicks.

Anniversary episodes are gimmicks. Good gimmicks, but gimmicks nonetheless.

So, unlike subpar material that relies on weekly gimmicks in an attempt to save itself from irrelevance, Doctor Who just tells a good, solid story. No puppets, or musicals.

You do realize that in seven seasons of Buffy and five seasons of Angel -- that is to say, out of 254 episodes -- you just tried to argue that Whedon relied on gimmicks by citing a grand total of two episodes?

Just good stories.

A gimmick can make for a good story. Nothin' wrong with gimmicks. "Monsters that can't move if you see them" is a gimmick, but "Blink" is wonderful.

Why do Buffy and Star Trek have more guts than Doctor Who?

I don't know enough about Buffy to comment, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that one reason why it might do episodes like a musical or whatever is because with a season of 20 episodes they can afford to have throw-away or filler episodes.

You're speaking from ignorance.

"Once More, With Feeling," Buffy 6x07, the musical episode, was vital to that season's arc. It introduced, advanced, and resolved several important character arcs -- from Anya's and Xander's song "I'll Never Tell" revealing their reluctance to get married, to Giles's decision to leave Buffy and Dawn in "Standing in the Way" to Tara's discovering that Willow had used magick to make her forget a bitter fight in "Under Your Spell/Standing (Reprise)" to Buffy revealing that she was listless and dissociated and depressed because she hadn't been rescued from Hell upon her resurrection -- she'd been torn out of Heaven itself, or so she believed -- in "Something to Sing About." The Buffy musical was important -- it was not just a throwaway.

To be fair, however. "Smile Time," the Angel episode in which Angel and Spike are transformed into puppets? Yeah, that was just for fun. A sense of frivolity that, thankfully, Doctor Who is absolutely not above, as evidenced by episodes like "The Shakespeare Code" or "The Unicorn and the Wasp" -- episodes that are also just for fun. :)

Why do Buffy and Star Trek have more guts than Doctor Who?

I'm sorry, but that claim is just as ridiculous as the critiques leveled at Whedon's shows.

First off, it's apples and oranges. You're comparing two shows aimed at adults to a show aimed at children. You'd to much better to compare Doctor Who to something like Batman: The Animated Series or -- if we stretch our pallet a bit to include formats other than the continuing hour-long television serial -- Harry Potter. The difference in who their audiences are will quite naturally affect how they present their stories, in what manner they mediate their presentations. You might as well try to compare the Helen Mirren film The Queen to the Disney film Beauty and the Beast, for all your comparison here makes sense.

Doctor Who has plenty of guts, too. I mean, it's a mainstream show aimed at children that encourages them to idolize as a hero a man who's openly LGBT -- that's huge. And while it certainly retains its own tropes, it's also that experiments hugely with its own genre. It's a show that can go anywhere and do anything. How many TV shows have one episode that's just pure fun, where they're dealing with alien witches and Shakespeare, and then another episode where they're in 1913 England at a military academy, examining themes of militarism and imperialism? And then go and do a straight-up horror episode the next time? Or feature a story about the Human race, facing its own inevitable extinction, choosing to pervert themselves into genocidal monsters? And then follow that up with a disaster movie pastiche? How many shows can go from Charles Dickens and ghosts to questions about existential crises and personal identity in a post-war environment? How many shows go from a fun romp with werewolves in Victorian Scotland to an honest-to-goodness love story that ends in tragedy? From a goofy Agatha Christie pastiche to a dark and brooding story about love and loss in a world where shadows want to eat you?

How many shows constantly deal with the issue and meaning of death -- while their target audience is children -- as often and consistently as Doctor Who?

I dare anyone to watch "Human Nature/The Family of Blood," "Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead," "Dalek," "The Waters of Mars," "The Girl in the Fireplace," "The Shakespeare Code," "Utopia," "Father's Day," "Midnight," "Turn Left," "The Eleventh Hour," "The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone," or "Vincent and the Doctor," and try to claim to with a straight face that Doctor Who doesn't take risks, doesn't experiment, doesn't have guts, doesn't tell deep and mature stories (even if they are mediated for child audiences).

And, by the way, mediating something for a child audience doesn't devalue it, or make it somehow "less" than an un-mediated work. Mediating it just means that it's presented in a way that allows minds that are less-developed than adults to assimilate themes and ideas that might otherwise be emotionally overwhelming. It's a way of helping children to grow, by helping them gradually confront things they'll need to confront in life, but to do it in a way that they're ready for. It's a wonderful and responsible thing for a storyteller to do.
 
If they EVER let Hack Whedon near Doctor Who, the show would be dead to me. I need proper writing, not pop-culture-laced,choreographed tweeny fights... :lol: :rolleyes:
You have no idea what you're talking about.

No. Once again you speak from ego. I have every idea what I am speaking of, you just don't like it.

Anniversary episodes are gimmicks. Good gimmicks, but gimmicks nonetheless.
No they are not. They are anniversary episodes, so validated by the anniversary being celebrated. There is no measuring point for musicals or hand-puppets.

You're speaking from ignorance.
See above, and thanks for the insult. :rolleyes: :lol:
 
If they EVER let Hack Whedon near Doctor Who, the show would be dead to me. I need proper writing, not pop-culture-laced,choreographed tweeny fights... :lol: :rolleyes:
In my opinion, Whedon is pretty much the anti-hack and probably the reason that Doctor Who's writing raised its game when the show returned in 2005.
 
Joss Whedon writes shows for himself. He writes the stories that he wants to tell about the characters he creates whether the ideas are popular or not. You don't need to like his work (a lot of people don't; that's why his more recent shows have failed so young), but you can hardly call him a hack.
 
they should do an episode where the Doctor becomes a pig!

or one set in the production offices with the cast playing the writers and producers and we find out Matt really IS the Doctor!
 
Would I want the Doctor to become a woman? No.

Would I want a female version of the Doctor (like Romana)? Yes.

Would I want a show that focused on a female version of the Doctor? Certainly. Heck, depending on the actress I may actually prefer watching it to the parent series.
 
If they EVER let Hack Whedon near Doctor Who, the show would be dead to me. I need proper writing, not pop-culture-laced,choreographed tweeny fights... :lol: :rolleyes:
You have no idea what you're talking about.

No. Once again you speak from ego. I have every idea what I am speaking of, you just don't like it.

If you had had any idea of what you were speaking, you would not have incorrectly characterized Whedon's work as "pop-culture-laced choreographed tweeny fights."

Anniversary episodes are gimmicks. Good gimmicks, but gimmicks nonetheless.

No they are not. They are anniversary episodes, so validated by the anniversary being celebrated.

Yeah, bullshit. Hell, The Five Doctors didn't even air on the anniversary. And there's inevitably nothing deeper to the multi-Doctor episodes than, "Hey, two, multiple Doctors!!!111" They're just flimsy excuses to have multiple Doctors show up and fight the bad guys.

And that's great! There is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. I fully support setting aside the story to do a fun gimmick in celebration of the show now and then. But don't confuse a gimmick with a real story.

There is no measuring point for musicals or hand-puppets.

Sure there is! Finding new ways of telling a story. "Once More, With Feeling" worked much, much better as a musical than it would have as a standard episodes -- the emotions and stories it was dealing with worked much better in the highly-emotive musical format than they would have in standard dialogue.

And the puppets, like multi-Doctor episodes, were just plain fun. "Smile Time" needed no more validation than that, just like The Three Doctors needed no more validation than that.

You're speaking from ignorance.
See above, and thanks for the insult. :rolleyes: :lol:

I had no idea your name was The Wormhole.

ETA:

Joss Whedon writes shows for himself. He writes the stories that he wants to tell about the characters he creates whether the ideas are popular or not. You don't need to like his work (a lot of people don't; that's why his more recent shows have failed so young), but you can hardly call him a hack.

Quoted for truth.
 
If you had had any idea of what you were speaking, you would not have incorrectly characterized Whedon's work as "pop-culture-laced choreographed tweeny fights."

I bought my wife the entire series on boxset. I assure you, I know exactly what I'm talking about. Again, you're just throwing a tantrum because someone said something you don't like. Same old, same old.

Yeah, bullshit. Hell, The Five Doctors didn't even air on the anniversary.
:lol: That's your "defense"? That's all you've got? You can't be serious. :lol:

And there's inevitably nothing deeper to the multi-Doctor episodes than, "Hey, two, multiple Doctors!!!111" They're just flimsy excuses to have multiple Doctors show up and fight the bad guys.
Yes, it's called an "Anniversary" show. By your logic, Buffy must have had some gimmick episodes. I'm sure it survived long enough for something, right?

Oh, wait. I'm sure that doesn't apply to Buffy. Your logic is always unsurprisingly bias in your favor. Heh. :techman:

And the puppets, like multi-Doctor episodes, were just plain fun. "Smile Time" needed no more validation than that, just like The Three Doctors needed no more validation than that.
Did the puppets celebrate an anniversary episode? If not, your comparison is pointless.
shrug.gif


See above, and thanks for the insult. :rolleyes: :lol:
I had no idea your name was The Wormhole.
Oh, you were insulting him. That makes it better...
 
Has anybody thought about who would make a good female Doctor?


Catherine Zeta Jones was a favorite among speculators when Smith was announced, but I think she's far too "Hollywood". Would give Doctor Who some more US attention, I suppose.



Joanna Lumley was apparentally considered in 1986 and did play the role briefly in Moffat's own Curse of Fatal Death. Which however was a non-canon story....

Arabella Weir also did a female Doctor-in a Big Finish story that featured David Tennant as a time lord! (This was a few years before he got cast as the Doctor).


Lumley's "Abfab" friend Jennifer Saunders might be a good choice. Plus I think she was the only series regular that hasn't been on WHO in some form.


There's of course been some weird rumors that Billie Piper or Catherine Tate would be a future regeneration. While former companions (Frazier Hines) and actors(Colin Baker, Paterson Joseph) have either been or auditioned for the role of the Doctor, i think a companion who had such an impact as Rose would be a really odd choice.
 
I'd argue that the Doctor's masculinity is as essential to the role, in any incarnation, as his sense of humor, optimism, overwhelming curiosity, and desire to right wrongs wherever he finds them.

Having said that -- there is one scenario I can think of under which the idea of a female Doctor might, to me, work.

The Doctor is in his thirteenth incarnation. He's dying. He thinks he's about to meet his end. He's certain of it. He thinks he's going to go. And then, all of the sudden, after he's said his goodbyes and made his peace with the universe... Suddenly, he regenerates.

Into a woman.

And she has no idea how that happened.

Blackout. End of season.
As long as it's Alyson Hannigan and written by Joss Whedon, I'm there. ;)
 
Yeah, bullshit. Hell, The Five Doctors didn't even air on the anniversary.
:lol: That's your "defense"? That's all you've got? You can't be serious. :lol:

Yes, it's called an "Anniversary" show.

Which is a gimmick.

By your logic, Buffy must have had some gimmick episodes.

Of course it did! That's been my point all along -- that a gimmick is not incompatible with quality work, and that there's nothing wrong with a gimmick. A gimmick can even be used to tell a good story or advance a season's arc, though it's not strictly necessary.

Did the puppets celebrate an anniversary episode? If not, your comparison is pointless.

Like I said, "Smile Time" was just there to have fun. A silly indulgence that Doctor Who is absolutely not above -- thank goodness! The show would be dreadful if it weren't able to step back and be nice and silly once in a while.

And, no, not all of Doctor Who's gimmick episodes have any deeper purpose. "The Lodger" was just one big gimmick of, "The Doctor living with a normal guy." And it was absolutely wonderful! "The Unicorn and the Wasp" was just a gimmick about the Doctor teaming up with Agatha Christie to solve a Christie-style murder. And it was delightful!

Thank goodness Doctor Who is willing to do silly gimmicks for no reason other than to have fun. It's great. :)

See above, and thanks for the insult. :rolleyes: :lol:
I had no idea your name was The Wormhole.
Oh, you were insulting him. That makes it better...

He explicitly said that he did not know enough about Buffy to comment, and then he said that they did a musical episode as throw-away filler because they had 20 episodes a season. I pointed out to him that "Once More, With Feeling," while gimmicky, was not a throwaway episode, because it advanced the seasonal arc. Hence, by his own admission, he was speaking from ignorance, and the facts blatantly contradicted his notion that the musical was done as a throwaway.

ETA:

If you had had any idea of what you were speaking, you would not have incorrectly characterized Whedon's work as "pop-culture-laced choreographed tweeny fights."

I bought my wife the entire series on boxset.

Then you have no excuse for inaccurately characterizing Whedon's work.

And which entire series? Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Angel? Firefly? Dollhouse?

To start with, Buffy was never a tween. Tweens are by definition people between the ages of, typically, around 8 to 12. Buffy, when her series began, was 16; when it ended, she was 22. She was never a tween.

Similarly, Firefly featured exactly one martial-arts fight in which the only character who was not an adult, River, participated. And that was in its film, Serenity. River's age is never clarified that I can recall, but she's clearly in her late teens at the very least. Again, not a tween.

I can recall absolutely no teenagers fighting in Angel save Connor, who was biologically around 17.

I haven't seen Dollhouse yet, but so far as I can recall, not a single member of the cast was below their mid-20s.

Of all those series, only one, Buffy, consistently made pop-culture references, and that was a function of Buffy's age (late teens); teenagers do speak like that, and as such it's perfectly appropriate. Pop culture only inconsistently featured in Angel, and there it was as likely to be a reference to pop culture from previous decades because of the vast age of the title character. It never played a role in Firefly, because that series was set in the 26th Century.

You, in short, fundamentally mis-characterized Whedon's work.
 
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:lol: I don't require "claims" or "evidence". This isn't a courtroom, Sci. I've already made my points, laid out my facts, and it still stands. You don't like it? Deal with it. Won't change anything. :rolleyes:
 
Why do Buffy and Star Trek have more guts than Doctor Who?

I'm sorry, but that claim is just as ridiculous as the critiques leveled at Whedon's shows.

First off, it's apples and oranges. You're comparing two shows aimed at adults to a show aimed at children. You'd to much better to compare Doctor Who to something like Batman: The Animated Series or -- if we stretch our pallet a bit to include formats other than the continuing hour-long television serial -- Harry Potter. The difference in who their audiences are will quite naturally affect how they present their stories, in what manner they mediate their presentations. You might as well try to compare the Helen Mirren film The Queen to the Disney film Beauty and the Beast, for all your comparison here makes sense.

Doctor Who has plenty of guts, too. I mean, it's a mainstream show aimed at children that encourages them to idolize as a hero a man who's openly LGBT -- that's huge. And while it certainly retains its own tropes, it's also that experiments hugely with its own genre. It's a show that can go anywhere and do anything. How many TV shows have one episode that's just pure fun, where they're dealing with alien witches and Shakespeare, and then another episode where they're in 1913 England at a military academy, examining themes of militarism and imperialism? And then go and do a straight-up horror episode the next time? Or feature a story about the Human race, facing its own inevitable extinction, choosing to pervert themselves into genocidal monsters? And then follow that up with a disaster movie pastiche? How many shows can go from Charles Dickens and ghosts to questions about existential crises and personal identity in a post-war environment? How many shows go from a fun romp with werewolves in Victorian Scotland to an honest-to-goodness love story that ends in tragedy? From a goofy Agatha Christie pastiche to a dark and brooding story about love and loss in a world where shadows want to eat you?

How many shows constantly deal with the issue and meaning of death -- while their target audience is children -- as often and consistently as Doctor Who?

I dare anyone to watch "Human Nature/The Family of Blood," "Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead," "Dalek," "The Waters of Mars," "The Girl in the Fireplace," "The Shakespeare Code," "Utopia," "Father's Day," "Midnight," "Turn Left," "The Eleventh Hour," "The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone," or "Vincent and the Doctor," and try to claim to with a straight face that Doctor Who doesn't take risks, doesn't experiment, doesn't have guts, doesn't tell deep and mature stories (even if they are mediated for child audiences).

And, by the way, mediating something for a child audience doesn't devalue it, or make it somehow "less" than an un-mediated work. Mediating it just means that it's presented in a way that allows minds that are less-developed than adults to assimilate themes and ideas that might otherwise be emotionally overwhelming. It's a way of helping children to grow, by helping them gradually confront things they'll need to confront in life, but to do it in a way that they're ready for. It's a wonderful and responsible thing for a storyteller to do.

Though I disagree with a lot of what you say, Sci (long-winded, condescending gas-bag that you are..), this is pure poetry.
 
:lol: I don't require "claims" or "evidence". This isn't a courtroom, Sci. I've already made my points, laid out my facts,

You didn't lay out any facts. You laid out a claim about the content of Whedon's work that was completely inaccurate and counter-factual, and then you refused to acknowledge that you'd made a counter-factual claim.
 
If they EVER let Hack Whedon near Doctor Who, the show would be dead to me. I need proper writing, not pop-culture-laced,choreographed tweeny fights... :lol: :rolleyes:

The Five and Three Doctors are "anniversary shows", not gimmicks. If you want to classify multiple Docs crossing over, then The Two Doctors would be a "gimmick". And it was awful, so that should be a shining example how cosmetic gimmick ideas only work for those who want said gimmicks. Doctor Who's writing is light-years above most everything else on television right now. Certainly a lifetime beyond anything Whedon ever put on paper. So, unlike subpar material that relies on weekly gimmicks in an attempt to save itself from irrelevance, Doctor Who just tells a good, solid story. No puppets, or musicals. Just good stories. And that's worked for them for almost fifty-years. I believe in the old adage, if it's not broke... ;)

Here you go, buddy. I know you sometimes miss posts in a rush to (hopefully) be heard. You take your time. If you don't understand where I made my points and stated my facts, look into getting a tutor. I don't have the time or patience to explain every detail to you... :techman:
 
Of course it did! That's been my point all along -- that a gimmick is not incompatible with quality work, and that there's nothing wrong with a gimmick.

Or in other words, Tropes Are Not Bad.

And, no, not all of Doctor Who's gimmick episodes have any deeper purpose. "The Lodger" was just one big gimmick of, "The Doctor living with a normal guy." And it was absolutely wonderful! "The Unicorn and the Wasp" was just a gimmick about the Doctor teaming up with Agatha Christie to solve a Christie-style murder. And it was delightful!

I'm not convinced that "The Lodger" won't have larger ramifications, as the abrubtness and mysteriousness of the ending left me wanting a lot more. As much fun as watching Eleven pass as a normal human was, the mystery was a lot more interesting.
 
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