Why X-Men: The Last Stand rocked!

[darkwing_duck1]

Too bad the writers didn't think that was important. Would Rogue be even allowed to say at the school now that she isn't even a mutant anymore?

As I said elsewhere, for all that the X films have a racial equality subtext, it's never been a polemical franchise. It's a superhero franchise, and the story focus is properly on the action/adventure.

I will confess that I found Movie Rogue to be a meandering mess of a character, an almost emo wallflower. I much prefer the "steel Magnolia" of the comics (esp the 90s comics), or the smart, sassy and sarcastic "Goth Rogue" from X-Men Evolution.

 

[Dream]

Too bad the writers didn't think that was important. Would Rogue be even allowed to say at the school now that she isn't even a mutant anymore?

As I said elsewhere, for all that the X films have a racial equality subtext, it's never been a polemical franchise. It's a superhero franchise, and the story focus is properly on the action/adventure.

I will confess that I found Movie Rogue to be a meandering mess of a character, an almost emo wallflower. I much prefer the "steel Magnolia" of the comics (esp the 90s comics), or the smart, sassy and sarcastic "Goth Rogue" from X-Men Evolution.

What sucks is that Rogue didn't even once use her power in X3. Rouge was the most important in the first movie but got less and less important with each sequel.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

What sucks is that Rogue didn't even once use her power in X3. Rouge was the most important in the first movie but got less and less important with each sequel.

Nah, she just sucks in the movies period (and not in a nice way)...

 

[Yassim]

X-Men is a superhero film franchise, not an exercise in deep intellectual discourse on race/gender/et al. They are an important part of the subtext, but the primary focus is on the action/adventure story.

I wasn't expecting a thesis paper... but it would have been nice for a moment for the actors to suggest some kind of feelings about what had happened. Instead, she returns and smiles at him...? End scene.

Fully formed physically yes, but her power levels increased gradually over time until she lost control and Xavier (much as in the movie) had to put in "psychic circuit breakers".
Those blocks were then eroded thanks to the manipulations of the White Queen and Mastermind on behalf of the Hellfire Club, who wanted Jean to be the new Black Queen.

I don't remember Xavier's breakers, until after Mastermind did his damage... but I believe you. But this argument is the old "If Superman's there, why have a Justice League?" and the answer is "If your writers can't deal with the characters, you need new writers... or a new league." For X3, they *chose* to put Phoenix on screen. So they should try to have her make sense... just a little. Some of the time. If you can't make the character work, you've made the wrong choices. This movie made the wrong choices over and over and over.

Her relationship to him did not result in her death. Logan was the one person who deeply and truly loved her who had the inner strength to do what had to be done to stop her. Pretty boy Scott, for all his declarations of love, could never let her go like that.

Well, be fair. At this point in the movie, Scott is dead.

In the film, Wolverine had to actually kill her himself, since the setup didn't include a handy Kree plasma cannon to destroy herself with.

It just didn't work for me. His quick-healing seemed phony, the idea that she'd just watch him come, that they would give up on every other idea except killing her... it felt contrived and anti-climactic.

The comics did it better - if Phoenix is the ultimate power, then you don't fight with her. Faced with someone she loves, she backs down... or she dies to save them. Those ideas had some emotional power... the movie didn't.

In the movie, she clearly had the power to kill herself, and said she wanted to, and had motivation after killing two people close to her. There were two (then one) power-stealers in the movie. There were lots of better outs than the one they chose.

I thought it rather obvious from the actors' portrayals.

The scene where she jumps Logan was... embarassing. Especially 'cause we don't know where Scott is. Phoenix is entirely opaque all through the movie, so nothing she does seems realistic or moving - it just happens. (with the exception of killing X - which might have used a little more explanation)

Jean is at that point almost psychotically drunk on power, and not in her right mind.

That may be true. But the movie makes no effort to show or even tell us that. It just happens. Why would she start off "psychotically drunk" and then calm all the way down to catatonic? and if she's not acting like a human being, who cares about her anyway?

Hank is a good boy, and his parents were older than many when they had him, so he comes off as being a bit "old fashioned".

I'm just bitching for the sake of bitching with this one.
But really, your explanation does say something to me. You forgive what I see to be a flaw, because you've explained something for yourself, based on what you know about the universe. You did that a couple of times upthread too. That's cool, I guess, but it's not judging the movie on its own merits - you're kind of seeing the tip of an iceberg that you already like. To me, the tip didn't work on its own (and I knew a fair bit of the backstory already). Part of why seeing the Beast on screen is great is because we've always *wanted* to see it. I wonder what non-fans got out of it.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I wasn't expecting a thesis paper... but it would have been nice for a moment for the actors to suggest some kind of feelings about what had happened. Instead, she returns and smiles at him...? End scene.

They did leave it dangling a bit...I would assume the writers were leaving themselves SOMEWHERE left to go if there was an X4.

this argument is the old "If Superman's there, why have a Justice League?" and the answer is "If your writers can't deal with the characters, you need new writers... or a new league." For X3, they *chose* to put Phoenix on screen. So they should try to have her make sense... just a little. Some of the time. If you can't make the character work, you've made the wrong choices. This movie made the wrong choices over and over and over.

Vis a vis Phoenix, I agree.

It just didn't work for me. His quick-healing seemed phony, the idea that she'd just watch him come, that they would give up on every other idea except killing her... it felt contrived and anti-climactic.

The quick healing was a bit much...his regen has never been that advanced or effective.

I suppose you could argue that the tiny spark of Jean left in Phoenix was holding her back JUST enough that she didn't disintegrate him outright, which would also explain why she "let" him just walk up to her.

The comics did it better - if Phoenix is the ultimate power, then you don't fight with her. Faced with someone she loves, she backs down... or she dies to save them.Those ideas had some emotional power... the movie didn't.

No arguement from me here.

But really, your explanation does say something to me. You forgive what I see to be a flaw, because you've explained something for yourself, based on what you know about the universe. You did that a couple of times upthread too. That's cool, I guess, but it's not judging the movie on its own merits - you're kind of seeing the tip of an iceberg that you already like. To me, the tip didn't work on its own (and I knew a fair bit of the backstory already). Part of why seeing the Beast on screen is great is because we've always *wanted* to see it. I wonder what non-fans got out of it.

That's a fair and interesting point. One I'm afraid could be said about nearly ANY "adaptation" project, if not done right.

 

[Praetor]

I have posted several times the most basic and logical changes to the first film that I feel could have created a better film and a better franchise, and won't bore anyone again.

The problems in no small part stemmed from the fact that Fox didn't believe in or back the project for some known-only-to-God reason. This led to massive fights between the director/producers and the studio.

It also meant that the film wasn't given the budget it needed to really soar FX wise. The "low rent" (or as someone else put it "mutilated") characters we got were a direct result of the producer having to rein them in to make them filmable with the money he had.

That said, I'd like to see your thoughts on what they could have changed to make it better within the context of what they had to work with...

That was a very good response earlier to some of the 'problems' people have with X3, and I think within the context of the franchise as set up in the previous films, it works. I don't know that I could have made a better X3 for what they were given to work with.

Now if we're talking about the first movie, my changes for the first movie would have been pretty basic, and wouldn't have really affected the film much as scripted, but would have affected the setup for the subsequent films. They are in many ways merely 'cosmetic.'

1) Age - Iceman would have been roughly the same age as Scott and Jean. They, along with an absent Beast and Angel, would be hinted to be the 'first five.' Colossus and Rogue would also be older. Banshee and Nightcrawler could be present, or at least referenced. Kitty Pryde should be present or referenced. These three should be of equivalent ages.

2) Casting - Storm would have been played by someone along the lines of Angela Bassett, or an 'unknown' actress along those lines. Iceman would have been played by Ryan Reynolds. I was actually okay with most of the other casting, except where age necessitates a different actor/actress.

3) Plot- Perhaps roughly the same as the movie played out, except that Rogue is on the run from the Brotherhood knowingly. She was once a member, but left after learning of Magneto's plot. She does not clue in the X-Men as to what is going on initially when they rescue her, and she is even more reluctant to accept their shelter; they have to figure it out themselves. Rogue would already have her 'Ms. Marvel' powers, and this would be hinted at in dialog, as well as seen to some degree. The X-Men make the same mistaken deduction that Magneto is after Wolverine. Senator Kelly does not die. Mystique is working for but betrays Magneto during the climax when she learns his plan would cause Rogue to die. The machine still gives Rogue her white streak, and could also enhance her powers to 'normal' Ms. Marvel levels. The movie ends basically the same way, with Rogue enrolling as a student.

So basically Wolverine completes a sort of hybrid, partial post- 'All New X-Men' roster. The setup would then allow them to go forward and bring in 'prior' X-Men as the plot allows. I would like to have seen the second movie possibly featuring Mystique spearheading her own Brotherhood, forcing Magneto to work with the X-Men to stop the implementation of the Sentinel program.

I haven't gotten it all completely worked out, obviously, but I feel that the above changes would have in the long run made for a more entertaining set of films that would not alienate diehard X-Men fans as much, without significantly altering the budget.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

That was a very good response earlier to some of the 'problems' people have with X3, and I think within the context of the franchise as set up in the previous films, it works. I don't know that I could have made a better X3 for what they were given to work with.

Now if we're talking about the first movie, my changes for the first movie would have been pretty basic, and wouldn't have really affected the film much as scripted, but would have affected the setup for the subsequent films. They are in many ways merely 'cosmetic.'

1) Age - Iceman would have been roughly the same age as Scott and Jean. They, along with an absent Beast and Angel, would be hinted to be the 'first five.' Colossus and Rogue would also be older. Banshee and Nightcrawler could be present, or at least referenced. Kitty Pryde should be present or referenced. These three should be of equivalent ages.

2) Casting - Storm would have been played by someone along the lines of Angela Bassett, or an 'unknown' actress along those lines. Iceman would have been played by Ryan Reynolds. I was actually okay with most of the other casting, except where age necessitates a different actor/actress.

3) Plot- Perhaps roughly the same as the movie played out, except that Rogue is on the run from the Brotherhood knowingly. She was once a member, but left after learning of Magneto's plot. She does not clue in the X-Men as to what is going on initially when they rescue her, and she is even more reluctant to accept their shelter; they have to figure it out themselves. Rogue would already have her 'Ms. Marvel' powers, and this would be hinted at in dialog, as well as seen to some degree. The X-Men make the same mistaken deduction that Magneto is after Wolverine. Senator Kelly does not die. Mystique is working for but betrays Magneto during the climax when she learns his plan would cause Rogue to die. The machine still gives Rogue her white streak, and could also enhance her powers to 'normal' Ms. Marvel levels. The movie ends basically the same way, with Rogue enrolling as a student.

So basically Wolverine completes a sort of hybrid, partial post- 'All New X-Men' roster. The setup would then allow them to go forward and bring in 'prior' X-Men as the plot allows. I would like to have seen the second movie possibly featuring Mystique spearheading her own Brotherhood, forcing Magneto to work with the X-Men to stop the implementation of the Sentinel program.

I haven't gotten it all completely worked out, obviously, but I feel that the above changes would have in the long run made for a more entertaining set of films that would not alienate diehard X-Men fans as much, without significantly altering the budget.

So you would have used dialogue to suggest the use of powers rather than having to depict them on screen to save money...interesting approach. That and a storyline that ties in more mentions from the comics to suggest, even if you can't show, a broader scope...

You mention adding Kitty into the first film. She's already IN the first two films, though basically as a walk-on (though Xavier makes mention of her further at the end). It wasn't until we got to 3 that she really got to kick some ass on screen. Her and Beast were my favorite two "additions" to the "active" roster.

 

[Praetor]

So you would have used dialogue to suggest the use of powers rather than having to depict them on screen to save money...interesting approach. That and a storyline that ties in more mentions from the comics to suggest, even if you can't show, a broader scope...

Indeed, and thank you. I feel it was the small scope that really caused the first movie to suffer. I mean, do we really need to see Rogue throwing a car left and right or flying to the upper atmosphere and back constantly? I'd have been happy seeing her levitate for a few minutes and toss Sabretooth like a ragdoll, with implications of being able to do more. Indeed, a 'restrained' Rogue is part of the character's essence to me.

Did I also mention avoiding using the black leather costumes? Something more... astonishing, perhaps? Not necessarily yellow spandex, either.

You mention adding Kitty into the first film. She's already IN the first two films, though basically as a walk-on (though Xavier makes mention of her further at the end). It wasn't until we got to 3 that she really got to kick some ass on screen. Her and Beast were my favorite two "additions" to the "active" roster.

True indeed, as was Jubilee. An oversight on my part. I should have clarified that I would want Kitty to be a student roughly comparable in age to Rogue who might be able to see some on-roster action relatively soon.

Part of my issue with the film continuity was that it seemed to needlessly and complete ignore certain aspects of book continuity such as character ages and abilities. For me, this was a major annoyance and hindered my ability to actually enjoy what I was watching, particularly in regard to Rogue and Iceman.

And where the heck were Polaris and Havok anyway? I would have liked to have at least seen them by X3.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Did I also mention avoiding using the black leather costumes? Something more... astonishing, perhaps? Not necessarily yellow spandex, either.

I was prepared to give them a pass on the costumes...they looked ok, and spandex is hard to work with when you can't draw your cast's figures to fit them properly.

Something like the F4 uniforms would have worked too.

Part of my issue with the film continuity was that it seemed to needlessly and complete ignore certain aspects of book continuity such as character ages and abilities. For me, this was a major annoyance and hindered my ability to actually enjoy what I was watching, particularly in regard to Rogue and Iceman.

Not as big an issue for me. I completely enjoyed X-Men Evolution DESPITE the changes in the characters' ages, etc. Different universe, different X-Men.

And where the heck were Polaris and Havok anyway? I would have liked to have at least seen them by X3.

And Gambit, Cannonball, Psylocke, [name your favorite character]...

The more characters you have in the mix, the more you get the audience saying "why didn't (character) get more screen time?"

Are you REALLY gonna pay Stewart, McKellon, Berry, etc the big bucks to GET them on the film and NOT focus on them?

 

[Thrall]

The only good thing about this movie was Kelsey Grammer as Beast. He was born to play that role. Too bad he was wasted in such a horrible POS. The other two weren't faithful to the source material all that much, but they were at least entertaining movies. This wasn't even that.

I could rant and rave about what they did to Cyclops was a crime against comics, but that would be a lie. Yes, having the main character of The Dark Pheonix Saga being killed off in the first 5 minutes and having his thunder stolen, YET AGAIN, by that white trash retard Wolverine was not in anyway enjoyable. But the truth is, The Movie Cyclops had been a pathetic joke since the first movie when he got his ass kicked by Toad. He'd been shit on horribly ever since. If anything, I consider it to be a mercy killing. And the movie version is still better then the current comics version, sadly. The Movie Slim died a stand up hero who was madly in love with and devoted to Jean Grey. The current, pathetic comic version is neither of those. So Cyclops fans kind of counted themselves lucky.

 

[Praetor]

I was prepared to give them a pass on the costumes...they looked ok, and spandex is hard to work with when you can't draw your cast's figures to fit them properly.

Eh. Just not 'hero'ish enough for me. But good for sneaking around and looking like a group. Like you say, a pass.

Something like the F4 uniforms would have worked too.

Something like that was what I was hoping for, actually.

Part of my issue with the film continuity was that it seemed to needlessly and complete ignore certain aspects of book continuity such as character ages and abilities. For me, this was a major annoyance and hindered my ability to actually enjoy what I was watching, particularly in regard to Rogue and Iceman.

Not as big an issue for me. I completely enjoyed X-Men Evolution DESPITE the changes in the characters' ages, etc. Different universe, different X-Men.

I actually enjoyed X-M:E too, despite not thinking I would. And I'd argue that there's no one 'right' way to present the characters... I guess I just go into a movie expecting them to draw closely on the source materials, and end up dissatisfied when they don't.

And where the heck were Polaris and Havok anyway? I would have liked to have at least seen them by X3.

And Gambit, Cannonball, Psylocke, [name your favorite character]...

The more characters you have in the mix, the more you get the audience saying "why didn't (character) get more screen time?"

I know, and it can border on fanwank very easily, but chronologically for me I'd have liked them to have been given a mention, or have an out to imagine they are there. Again, I feel like in creating a movie for something that has a source you should try to honor the source while making a good movie.

Are you REALLY gonna pay Stewart, McKellon, Berry, etc the big bucks to GET them on the film and NOT focus on them?

Well, you know I wouldn't have paid Berry to start with.

 

[rafterman1701]

This movie may have more action and characters from the books, but it is too fast, too stupid and too full of itself. Each scene plays like the Cliff's Notes version. The cure storyline has never been interesting nor believable. An shot that completely reverses a mutation in two seconds? Ridiculous. Xavier's and Scott's deaths are complete wastes and the ending is a complete cop-out. Why did they make this film as if it was the last one they would ever do? Now what can they do for a sequel? Oh, yeah Wolverine. Pathetic. Marvel needs to reboot this franchise.

 

[Dream]

Why did they make this film as if it was the last one they would ever do? Now what can they do for a sequel? Oh, yeah Wolverine. Pathetic. Marvel needs to reboot this franchise.

The contracts for the main cast were only for three movies. I figured the writers just thought "SCREW IT! fans are going to watch this no matter what we do".

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I actually enjoyed X-M:E too, despite not thinking I would. And I'd argue that there's no one 'right' way to present the characters... I guess I just go into a movie expecting them to draw closely on the source materials, and end up dissatisfied when they don't.

Agreed absolutely. The LA X-Men movies are probably #4 on my list of X-Men adaptations, behind the 90s animated, Evo, and Wolverine & the X-Men (which if you haven't checked out, you should...it's on Nicktoons and the first 3 eps are out on dvd this month, as are volumes of the 90s series).

And Gambit, Cannonball, Psylocke, [name your favorite character]...

The more characters you have in the mix, the more you get the audience saying "why didn't (character) get more screen time?"

I know, and it can border on fanwank very easily, but chronologically for me I'd have liked them to have been given a mention, or have an out to imagine they are there. Again, I feel like in creating a movie for something that has a source you should try to honor the source while making a good movie.

Agreed again in general.

Are you REALLY gonna pay Stewart, McKellon, Berry, etc the big bucks to GET them on the film and NOT focus on them?

Well, you know I wouldn't have paid Berry to start with.

True. Prissy little prima donna. Not sure who else we could have gotten...Vivica Fox maybe?

 

[jmc247]

And where the heck were Polaris and Havok anyway? I would have liked to have at least seen them by X3.

The writers intentionally avoided bringing up characters that might open up a can of worms. That is why I felt there was no Wanda, Pietro, Lorna, or Alex.

 

[Myasishchev]

I'd have liked to have seen Alex Summers. Could've been a Magneto supporter, which might have seen Scott Summers actually having a role!

X3 would have been immeasurably better if the Phoenix bit had just been dropped or played as the Scott/Jean thing it was in the comics. You don't need the Hellfire Club or the Shi'ar to do that.

And for what it's worth, I thought the death scene in the comics was a bit cowardly, in that Scott didn't really choose whether to kill Jean and save worlds or kill worlds and save what little was left of Jean. The Kree gun, and Jean, chose for him. It would've been far more poignant if he'd blown her head off with an optic blast himself--but that's just my opinion. But, at least he was, you know, around in the comics.

X3 did surprise when it killed Xavier--I thought that was an interesting and worthwile use of the Phoenix, to be honest. Shame about Scott, though.

I concur with everyone else who said that the creators treated the franchise as if it were named "Wolverine and The Other Guys." Wolverine is interesting, hell yes, but he was dreadfully overexposed in the comics. I guess those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, as they surely did in the film franchise.

P.S.: I liked the Juggernaut, bitch! joke. It was perfectly integrated and a good laugh.

 

[Praetor]

I actually enjoyed X-M:E too, despite not thinking I would. And I'd argue that there's no one 'right' way to present the characters... I guess I just go into a movie expecting them to draw closely on the source materials, and end up dissatisfied when they don't.

Agreed absolutely. The LA X-Men movies are probably #4 on my list of X-Men adaptations, behind the 90s animated, Evo, and Wolverine & the X-Men (which if you haven't checked out, you should...it's on Nicktoons and the first 3 eps are out on dvd this month, as are volumes of the 90s series).

I had wondered about the new cartoon. Seems 'Days of Futures Past'ish, but without the time travel. I of course grew up on the 90s show and am eagerly awaiting buying that.

Are you REALLY gonna pay Stewart, McKellon, Berry, etc the big bucks to GET them on the film and NOT focus on them?

Well, you know I wouldn't have paid Berry to start with.

True. Prissy little prima donna. Not sure who else we could have gotten...Vivica Fox maybe?

Vivica... might have worked. I would have wanted someone with a commanding presence, but not necessarily physically intimidating. Part of my issue with Berry, despite her being a diva, was that her voice was so meek. (And the disappearing accent. Pick one! ) I would have been happy with virtual unknowns for most of the parts for which good choices weren't immediately apparent. Who knew who Chris Reeve was before Superman?

And where the heck were Polaris and Havok anyway? I would have liked to have at least seen them by X3.

The writers intentionally avoided bringing up characters that might open up a can of worms. That is why I felt there was no Wanda, Pietro, Lorna, or Alex.

I agree. But I think it's a shame. In the comics, IIRC, Wanda, Pietro, and Lorna didn't initially know who their father was anyway so that need not be an immediate issue. Alex... might have been a good contrast for a more authoritative Cyclops. He might have even been a good way of 'forcing' the Cyclops character to man-up.

 

[Yassim]

And for what it's worth, I thought the death scene in the comics was a bit cowardly, in that Scott didn't really choose whether to kill Jean and save worlds or kill worlds and save what little was left of Jean. The Kree gun, and Jean, chose for him. It would've been far more poignant if he'd blown her head off with an optic blast himself--but that's just my opinion.

He *did* choose. He was risking his life to try and save her. She just made a different choice.

If Jean decides to kill herself, it's tragic. If someone else kills her... she's pathetic, and the other person is cold. The comic death is much more satisfying.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I had wondered about the new cartoon. Seems 'Days of Futures Past'ish, but without the time travel. I of course grew up on the 90s show and am eagerly awaiting buying that.

It's basically the "runup" to DoFP, at least to this point.
In terms of story elements, it's borrowing from several different points in the comics history: DoFP, Magneto's Genosha, Rogue as a member of the Brotherhood, "not so evil" Emma from the more current issues, etc.

So far it works though.

And where the heck were Polaris and Havok anyway? I would have liked to have at least seen them by X3.

The writers intentionally avoided bringing up characters that might open up a can of worms. That is why I felt there was no Wanda, Pietro, Lorna, or Alex.

I agree. But I think it's a shame. In the comics, IIRC, Wanda, Pietro, and Lorna didn't initially know who their father was anyway so that need not be an immediate issue. Alex... might have been a good contrast for a more authoritative Cyclops. He might have even been a good way of 'forcing' the Cyclops character to man-up.

Please dont' get me started on Lorna...they STILL haven't explained how the hell she's Magneto's daughter.

 

[Jax]

Scott died because the actor pissed off to have a cameo role in Superman Returns, so I refuse to blame anyone for how they wrote out the character, he was a BLAH character anyway.