Why X-Men: The Last Stand rocked!

[T'Baio]

Good God! What kind of a question is that!?! My brain!

X3 is the most disappointing.

T3 is the most stupid.

AVP is the most incompetent.

Is that a good answer?

 

[Rowan Sjet]

^ What about Spider-Man 3?

 

[Dream]

No... it really didn't.

 

[T'Baio]

^ What about Spider-Man 3?

The most ill-conceived.

 

[Orac Zen]

If Magneto is such a fucking genius, why the did he wait until his infantry was wasted to start launching the flaming cars? Even if you don't give a damn about your infantry, that's beyond stupid.

What annoyed me even more was that the infantry were mutants - y'know, the ones Magnet Boy is always saying are the superior form of human life and for whom he expressed such concern in the earlier movies. In this, he stands around watching mutants being slaughtered and does absolutely nothing. Queen Jean, having offed Saint Scott off-screen (not that I ever much liked either character) and gone to the dark side, stands around and does nothing. So much for Magnet Boy's absolute belief in the superiority of all mutants.

Throw in the cop-out ending (Oh, look, X isn't really dead and Magnet Boy isn't depowered after all! Not that anyone stays dead or depowered for long in the X-universe, of course), the craptacular editing (every scene, as mentioned, does seem to last about 15 seconds), the name-checks masquerading as character appearances, the trite, cliched dialogue and the sheer stupidity of some of the characters' behaviour and...well, whatever X3 did, it didn't rock. At all. (Except for Kelsey Grammar's Beast, which rocked big time.)

To each their own, however.

 

[Dream]

Throw in the cop-out ending (Oh, look, X isn't really dead and Magnet Boy isn't depowered after all! Not that anyone stays dead or depowered for long in the X-universe, of course), the craptacular editing (every scene, as mentioned, does seem to last about 15 seconds), the name-checks masquerading as character appearances, the trite, cliched dialogue and the sheer stupidity of some of the characters' behaviour and...well, whatever X3 did, it didn't rock. At all. (Except for Kelsey Grammar's Beast, which rocked big time.)

Many of the deleted/alternate scenes on the dvd should have been left in the movie like Phoenix deatomizing the gun, Phoenix looking back at girl during bridge scene, and Rogue not taking the cure. It felt like they didn't want to take the time to tell a good story.

 

[exodus]

It's Tuln. I didn't love the film, but on other topics, this film is VERY hated. I at least want to give it credit for trying, while still being a fun movie. I wanted a discussion on it that probed both its faults and merits, and there have been some great points made in this thread that have gotten me to think differently.

I like this line: 'Try growing those back."

Ok, in that case.

I think they should have stuck with the mutant cure story and not have tried anything with Phoenix. That would keep Cyclops & Xavier around. Beast was fine, make Angel's story relevant. Add Forge(to explain the Danger Room.) & Psylocke(To the X-Men as the teams drill enstructor. It would explain her fighing skills and make use of her telepathy) Along with Colossus, the X-Men now have a bigger team for the final fight.

Dump Kid Omega(Who?) & psudo-Psylocke and replace them with Quicksilver & the Scarlet Witch. Keep Archlight & Madrox(he was cool) and replace Calisto with a CGI'ed Caliban a la Smegol. Along with Juggy, now you have a fomittable Brotherhood. No army of mutants for Magneto, let the Brotherhood tare shit up instead.

Leech shuts down Magneto's powers, leaving Phoenix the main villain for the next sequel.

End the film with Jean rising from the lake.
Fade to black
Roll credits.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

The idea that Phoenix was always there and repressed? Interesting. Discussed? not much.

Yeah, the Jean/Phoenix arc was underplayed overall.

The idea that mutants might choose to be normal? Interesting. Played out? not much.

I think this got the appropriate amount of screen time.

Phoenix does two things that make sense in this movie.
- Kill Professor X
- try to shag Wolverine
What is she doing the rest of the time? Why does she do nothing during the fight, and then join later on? After killing X, what does she do until the very end?

The problem was they went for Jean Grey scale to Full Phoenix scale with nothing in between, unlike the comics where her power slowly grew over time. That meant they couldn't logically let her fight, or it was "good night Irene" for the good guys.

The Logan/Jean relationship was weak, so having him kill her was very meh. Which was not what that moment needed.

Straight out of the comics though.

Angel's first scene was great - but you can't introduce a character with only 8 lines and expect anyone to care.

He worked as a supporting character, which in this incarnation was all that he was.

Scott's death was, as mentioned, complete ass.

Excuse to bring in a new actor if they ever chose to, just like killing Charles was.

When Logan spots the "cure" needles, I thought we'd get some kind of conflict around the idea of forcing it on Magneto - is it right to gouge out his eyes if it ends this? but no recognition of that idea at all - even though it was put as central when Hank resigns over the government using the "cure" as a weapon. But he's actually the one to spear Magneto...?

Yes, and did you notice the way he acted immediately afterwards? He was disgusted with himself.

A very disappointing miss, all in all.

I'd call it a little more generously, say "adequate". Which is damning with faint praise what should have been extaordinary.

And we DID get some great moments, like Magneto FINALLY doing something truly Magneto in scale, and a smart-as-a-whip Kitty Pryde besting Juggernaut. Not to mention every second Beast was on-screen.

 

[grabmygoblin]

X3? what X3? there was no third X-Men film.
*sticks fingers in ears, squeezes eyes shut LALALALALALALA*

 

[roguephoenix]

This movie is so hated by the fans. But before I can go into0 any detail why I disagree, I must first say that the first two X-Men films create a great cinematic world for the X-Men to live in, but as films they have problems. The first film was all introductions, and the action at the end was rather bland, particularly the statue scenes. The second film, the favorite, is really good, and more time is spent on the characters, the plot and the relationships. That said, the film has an underwritten second act. I mean what were Storm and Jean doing, sitting in a plane that whole time? It was a good film.

The third film is much maligned. Despite the director's attempt to keep the films consistent in their feel, the change in directors is still obvious. However, look at Ebert's review for why I like it. It has a real challenging point, a conflict that stems from the universe these characters inhabit, but also soemthing that's relevant to our time. People say Watchmen was written as a reflection of the political situation of the Cold War, and I think that X-3 deals with many many issues of today through allegory. Bringing the Pheonix into this actually worked.. she's damn powerful, but having her move planets around would not fit in the cinematic universe. Sure the stories alternate fora while in a haphazard way, but a lot of movies do that if they have two plots. At no point does either storey become stagnant or uninteresting. I think what makes this story work is how much meat it has. In some ways it is more relevant and more important than part 2.
Any film that talks about a political "slippery slope" has got to have some merit.
Plus, how great is it to have a movie that has an antagonist that you can ompeltely agree with and side with. Magneto has a point, and you can't take that away.
The Beastwas great. Grrammer made him a complex character.
I like the subtle charcter work.. it all felt genuine. There are moments hen Magneto's respect for Charles is really apparent.
I liked the scene between Storm and Logan where it's just the two of them talking about whether he should go after Jean.
Plus, hell the action at the end, while far from the best action scene ever put on film, is very entertaining. I love the Juggernaut vs. Kitty thing, it was awesome.

is it opposite day and no one told me? or is it just sarcasm? i can't tell anymore. >_<

 

[Skywalker]

^ Maybe this is just a preemptive April Fool's thread?

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

No it's real.
It's by far not perfect, nor as good as it could have been but it does make you think, and it is a lot of fun.

 

[clint g]

X3 was complete ass. I still dont understand how they felt they could tell the Dark Phoenix story without putting focus on Jean and Scott. The film was essentially doomed from the start because of the creators love affair with Wolverine

 

[Yassim]

The idea that mutants might choose to be normal? Interesting. Played out? not much.

I think this got the appropriate amount of screen time.

I think you could write a movie around this - particularly as allegory for minorities who assimilate, who get accused of "acting white". I think it's a rich idea that got passed over for dumbassery.

We never even got to hear what the characters feel about it. Rogue clearly thought it was a good idea. Will she still, if Bobby dumps her? Will Bobby find her more attractive now that they can touch, or less attractive because she's normal, because she's rejected mutanthood, which is so important to him? *Here's* your movie.

Great missed moment - Rogue is present at the final fight, and realizes she could save all those lives if she touched Jean, and still had her powers.

The problem was they went for Jean Grey scale to Full Phoenix scale with nothing in between, unlike the comics where her power slowly grew over time. That meant they couldn't logically let her fight, or it was "good night Irene" for the good guys.

I don't remember this. As I remember, Jean emerged from the shuttle crash fully formed, and fully powered. Whether this is true or not, if your character can't logically allow the story to progress, you have the wrong characters or the wrong story.

Straight out of the comics though.

Jean's relationship to Logan resulting in her death? not by a mile. Her repressed attraction to him, yes. Repressed why? Because she's in LOVE with Scott! The movie never made me believe she had feelings for either of them. Disintegrating a guy accidentally and not realizing it - that's just not how I see love.

Better ending - Jean realizes she killed Scott by accident (maybe Logan shows her the glasses?), and kills herself.

Worse ending... still thinking.

He [Angel] worked as a supporting character, which in this incarnation was all that he was.

No, Beast was a supporting character. Angel was a prop.

Excuse to bring in a new actor if they ever chose to, just like killing Charles was.

At least Charles got a death scene. Cyke's death was just lamer than lame.

Yes, and did you notice the way he acted immediately afterwards? He was disgusted with himself.

I remember he apologized. That's nice of him, I guess. But hardly an interesting look at morality.

And we DID get some great moments, like Magneto FINALLY doing something truly Magneto in scale, and a smart-as-a-whip Kitty Pryde besting Juggernaut. Not to mention every second Beast was on-screen.

The bridge scene was cool, weird physics notwithstanding. Though my favourite moment there is when the mother meets eyes with Magneto, and locks the car. Awesome. I'd have liked a little more exploration of his bloodthirstyness, though - he kills a bunch of people really casually in this movie, throwing cars through the air, dropping the bridge on people... In X1, he showed a fair bit of restraint, and was far more interesting.

Pryde did have a great moment, undermined by some stupid humour. When you're stealing from YouTube, give up.

Frasier was great as Beast. To continue my quibbling tone, though... I always thought Beast knew that "Oh my stars and garters!" was a goofy thing to say, and he said it to exaggerate his shock at things. Saying it while looking at something really shocking sort of drains the moment of tension.

 

[TheMasterOfOrion]

X3? what X3? there was no third X-Men film.
*sticks fingers in ears, squeezes eyes shut LALALALALALALA*

Vinnie Jones...what a pathetic "actor"

If only this guy arrived early in the movie

and just owned him

 

[Praetor]

It's Tuln. I didn't love the film, but on other topics, this film is VERY hated. I at least want to give it credit for trying, while still being a fun movie. I wanted a discussion on it that probed both its faults and merits, and there have been some great points made in this thread that have gotten me to think differently.

I like this line: 'Try growing those back."

Ok, in that case.

I think they should have stuck with the mutant cure story and not have tried anything with Phoenix. That would keep Cyclops & Xavier around. Beast was fine, make Angel's story relevant. Add Forge(to explain the Danger Room.) & Psylocke(To the X-Men as the teams drill enstructor. It would explain her fighing skills and make use of her telepathy) Along with Colossus, the X-Men now have a bigger team for the final fight.

Dump Kid Omega(Who?) & psudo-Psylocke and replace them with Quicksilver & the Scarlet Witch. Keep Archlight & Madrox(he was cool) and replace Calisto with a CGI'ed Caliban a la Smegol. Along with Juggy, now you have a fomittable Brotherhood. No army of mutants for Magneto, let the Brotherhood tare shit up instead.

Leech shuts down Magneto's powers, leaving Phoenix the main villain for the next sequel.

End the film with Jean rising from the lake.
Fade to black
Roll credits.

"I like your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter."

I was able to detach enough to actually enjoy this movie the first time, and if I avoid picking it apart, still can. I was at least glad Bobby finally seemed to grow a meager semblance of snowballs.

At least this movie had a compelling and interesting issue to deal with (the Mutant Cure) even if it did so rather ineptly. At least there were props like Beast and Angel. At least we got to see a (mutiliated) Phoenix.

Nothing this movie did changed, either way, what, IMO, were fatal flaws to the creation of the X-Men movie franchise in the first film. Therefore, I disengaged and tried to let myself enjoy each of them for what they were and what they had to offer. I have posted several times the most basic and logical changes to the first film that I feel could have created a better film and a better franchise, and won't bore anyone again.

 

[Dream]

I think you could write a movie around this - particularly as allegory for minorities who assimilate, who get accused of "acting white". I think it's a rich idea that got passed over for dumbassery.

We never even got to hear what the characters feel about it. Rogue clearly thought it was a good idea. Will she still, if Bobby dumps her? Will Bobby find her more attractive now that they can touch, or less attractive because she's normal, because she's rejected mutanthood, which is so important to him? *Here's* your movie.

Too bad the writers didn't think that was important. Would Rogue be even allowed to say at the school now that she isn't even a mutant anymore?

 

[Captaindemotion]

It was something of a disappointment after the second movie. But that seems to be the way with Superhero threequels. I don't think it's quite as bad as made out. It has more action and better action sequences than its predecessors, the opening scenes in the danger room are fun, Grammer is perfect as Beast and I love the 'grow those back' scene. But Prof X and Cyke get even shorter shrift than in the first 2 movies, it tries to cram in too many plots and Ratner clearly isn't interested in character or in developing the ideas that the plot throws up.

Still, I'd take it over Superman III, Batman Forever or even Godfather III!

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I think you could write a movie around this - particularly as allegory for minorities who assimilate, who get accused of "acting white". I think it's a rich idea that got passed over for dumbassery.

We never even got to hear what the characters feel about it. Rogue clearly thought it was a good idea. Will she still, if Bobby dumps her? Will Bobby find her more attractive now that they can touch, or less attractive because she's normal, because she's rejected mutanthood, which is so important to him? *Here's* your movie.

X-Men is a superhero film franchise, not an exercise in deep intellectual discourse on race/gender/et al. They are an important part of the subtext, but the primary focus is on the action/adventure story.

I don't remember this. As I remember, Jean emerged from the shuttle crash fully formed, and fully powered. Whether this is true or not, if your character can't logically allow the story to progress, you have the wrong characters or the wrong story.

Fully formed physically yes, but her power levels increased gradually over time until she lost control and Xavier (much as in the movie) had to put in "psychic circuit breakers".

Those blocks were then eroded thanks to the manipulations of the White Queen and Mastermind on behalf of the Hellfire Club, who wanted Jean to be the new Black Queen.

Jean's relationship to Logan resulting in her death? not by a mile.

Her relationship to him did not result in her death. Logan was the one person who deeply and truly loved her who had the inner strength to do what had to be done to stop her. Pretty boy Scott, for all his declarations of love, could never let her go like that.

In the film, Wolverine had to actually kill her himself, since the setup didn't include a handy Kree plasma cannon to destroy herself with.

The movie never made me believe she had feelings for either of them.

I thought it rather obvious from the actors' portrayals.

Disintegrating a guy accidentally and not realizing it - that's just not how I see love.

Jean is at that point almost psychotically drunk on power, and not in her right mind.

At least Charles got a death scene. Cyke's death was just lamer than lame.

I can't entirely disagree here. The way they chose to portray the entire Phoenix arc was rather banal and off-handed.

I remember he apologized. That's nice of him, I guess. But hardly an interesting look at morality.

I'm talking about how he throws away the Cure cartridge in disgust after stabbing Magneto with the darts.

Awesome. I'd have liked a little more exploration of his bloodthirstyness, though - he kills a bunch of people really casually in this movie, throwing cars through the air, dropping the bridge on people... In X1, he showed a fair bit of restraint, and was far more interesting.

In X1, there was still the possibility of peace. X3 showed us a Magneto gone to open War.

Pryde did have a great moment, undermined by some stupid humour. When you're stealing from YouTube, give up.

I thought the humor worked.

Frasier was great as Beast. To continue my quibbling tone, though... I always thought Beast knew that "Oh my stars and garters!" was a goofy thing to say, and he said it to exaggerate his shock at things. Saying it while looking at something really shocking sort of drains the moment of tension.

Hank is a good boy, and his parents were older than many when they had him, so he comes off as being a bit "old fashioned".

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I have posted several times the most basic and logical changes to the first film that I feel could have created a better film and a better franchise, and won't bore anyone again.

The problems in no small part stemmed from the fact that Fox didn't believe in or back the project for some known-only-to-God reason. This led to massive fights between the director/producers and the studio.

It also meant that the film wasn't given the budget it needed to really soar FX wise. The "low rent" (or as someone else put it "mutilated") characters we got were a direct result of the producer having to rein them in to make them filmable with the money he had.

That said, I'd like to see your thoughts on what they could have changed to make it better within the context of what they had to work with...