Why would God send someone to hell over suicide?

[Gepard]

[http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/344/21/1594

That study you quoted is from 2001, a year before the beginning events chronicled in the Wired article, which is specifically about the Placebo effect getting stronger recently. They're also more effective than doing "virtually nothing" in psychiatric trials, where placebos can be just as effective at treating depression as medication.

At any rate, the fact that Placebos do something under some conditions means J. had more of a leg to stand on with his claim than you did with yours.

 

[Rusty phaser]

Let me ask you guys something...honest answers, please.

When you guys have these arguments, and I am asking both the Christians and the non-Christians here, what are your motivations for getting involved? Are you doing it to share an opinion or in hopes of destroying the other person's beliefs? Is it love or contempt that motivates you guys?

Well, first of all there is entertainment value in debating. Secondly, I guess it is a combination of sharing an opinion and trying to change others opinion. I think it's fun to pose hard contradictory questions to religious people and then look at how they try to rationalize their positions in ofter quite illogical ad hoc ways, but the hope is of course that that person might see that and thus perhaps think a bit about his or her beliefs.

I am, however, not hopeful in actually doing that so I guess the entertainment value becomes the main motivator. I mean, when one of the main rationalizations of religion is that faith is better than knowledge you can't really put much hope in in peoples ability to think rationally about it.

As a non-american I have no political motivations either - if I were, that would probably be a very important factor.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Let me ask you guys something...honest answers, please.

When you guys have these arguments, and I am asking both the Christians and the non-Christians here, what are your motivations for getting involved? Are you doing it to share an opinion or in hopes of destroying the other person's beliefs? Is it love or contempt that motivates you guys?

Never contempt. Sometimes love, or perhaps a kind of pity. A lot of times it's just for the sake of debate, and the hope of making somebody see things in a new way. Sometimes it's because something destructive is going on and I must oppose it, or because something constructive is going on and I must support it.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

you'll never hear me call you dumb or ignorant for believing there is a God.

You would appear to be unique, then.

 

[Amaris]

you'll never hear me call you dumb or ignorant for believing there is a God.

You would appear to be unique, then.

I can think of several other atheists and agnostics on this board who are the same.


J.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Apparently they're staying out of this thread...

 

[Amaris]

^ Apparently they're staying out of this thread...

You've spoken to several of them already.


J.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I don't think so.

 

[Kemaiku]

As many have said before, trying to rationalise a bronze age superstitious belief carried over in modern times is a futile endeavour.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

You seem pretty resolute, J. I would have to say though that if you are now an atheist you were never touched by Christ in the first place. Would you agree? If so, what made you believe in Him before?

I would disagree, just as I do when someone pulls the "not a true Christian in the first place" card.

J.

I don't think it's a card. I just think if you were touched by Christ you'd know it. At least that's been my experience.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

[snip]

See what I mean, J?

 

[Kemaiku]

[snip]

See what I mean, J?

My comments are made in general, I've been around these boards for nearly 5 years now and J. has always been kind to me in that time.

 

[apenpaap]

[snip]

See what I mean, J?

He wasn't calling theists idiots, but theism.

 

[Kemaiku]

[snip]

See what I mean, J?

He wasn't calling theists idiots, but theism.

Precisely. I know several benevolent, keenly intelligent theists but I do have a problem with the core doctrains of that theism.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

My comments are made in general, I've been around these boards for nearly 5 years now and J. has always been kind to me in that time.

Like I said, J's unique.

He wasn't calling theists idiots, but theism.

Same thing.

Making fun of a belief is making fun of everyone who has that belief. Because a belief is part of what a person is - you slam the belief, you slam the person who has it.

It's like politics, in a way. Whatever you say about any politician, you are also saying about everyone who voted for him/her.

 

[Amaris]

^ I don't think so.

I know so.

I don't think it's a card. I just think if you were touched by Christ you'd know it. At least that's been my experience.

It's purely experiential. You can interpret anything to mean "touched by Jesus". "I felt Him in my heart", well that's good. You just have no way of knowing beyond your assumptions that Jesus was the one who answered you.

See what I mean, J?

You have talked to several atheists and agnostics in this forum, and I don't think you've realized it. Just as it isn't wise to paint everyone with the same brush, you can't take one person and apply them to an entire group of people.

My comments are made in general, I've been around these boards for nearly 5 years now and J. has always been kind to me in that time.

Aw.

J.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

you'll never hear me call you dumb or ignorant for believing there is a God.

You would appear to be unique, then.

I can think of several other atheists and agnostics on this board who are the same.

^ Apparently they're staying out of this thread...

I am staying out of the thread because I don't really have a satisfactory answer to the OP's question.

But don't let that stand in your way of jumping to conclusions about all atheists or agnostics. Which I'm pretty sure was exactly the type of behavior you were just criticizing.

Ask Flying Spaghetti Monster about some of the discussions we've had in TNZ, and you'll see where I stand on the issue.

Making fun of a belief is making fun of everyone who has that belief. Because a belief is part of what a person is - you slam the belief, you slam the person who has it.

It's like politics, in a way. Whatever you say about any politician, you are also saying about everyone who voted for him/her.

That's absurd. So you think you can't criticize tenets of a religion you disagree with or the platform/actions of a politician without it being a direct personal attack on their believers and supporters?

 

[Kemaiku]

My comments are made in general, I've been around these boards for nearly 5 years now and J. has always been kind to me in that time.

Aw.

J.

Just sayin'

 

[iguana_tonante]

The bible is clear on it. Hell was not created for us but for Satan and his followers..we send ourselves there by not accepting Jesus as Savior...if I'm wrong about Him then I have nothing to lose, I just die..if I'm right I have everything to gain.

Ah, Pascal's wager, not really a powerhouse of theological debate, because it doesn't take into account that, if some other religion is right, you'll be heading down to their version of hell (or reincarnation, dimension of existence, whatever). You should hope we atheist are right, because if not you're fucked.

I would hope at this point that Kirk doesn't think we're pegging him as some kind of liar.

Not at all. I'm voting for endearingly naive.

Let me ask you guys something...honest answers, please.

When you guys have these arguments, and I am asking both the Christians and the non-Christians here, what are your motivations for getting involved? Are you doing it to share an opinion or in hopes of destroying the other person's beliefs? Is it love or contempt that motivates you guys?

A fair question. My answer: because I hate to see people misinformed. Really really hate it.

Personal beliefs do not worry me: I'm a materialist and a rationalist, but I know my way is not for everyone. If you feel in your heart that there is a force in the universe, a force of good, love and mercy, and that this force was incarnated in a guy 2,000 years ago, more power to you, really. It doesn't clash with physical reality, so it's just between you and yourself. But when people start talking about the Bible being a literal truth, or people use it to deny rights to others, or something like that, that clash with my conscience and my allegiance to scientific truth, and I can't stand quiet against that.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

You can believe what you want, and I'll just continue to think that the beliefs are a little crazy. In any case you miss my point: I don't like the fact that policy, both written and unwritten, is being made based on these beliefs. The fact that Christianity has billions of followers doesn't make it any more truthful than tales of Zeus, but Christiantiy draws its legitimacy from its legions of followers. It started as a means of controlling and brainwashing the population, but the experiement succeeded well beyond anyone's imagination. Swallow the kool-aid if you want to, but don't take us down with you!

Natch!

And I believe your beliefs are silly. To believe the universe sprang from nothingness when observation and experience show us that nothing comes from nothing seems crazy to me.

And like it or not this country (USA) was founded on Christian values and we will not remain silent. We have a moral responsibility and a responsibility to God.

Now, I won't take away your right to free speech. Don't take away mine.