Spoilers Why wasn't the Franklin and NX class ship?

[Cyke101]

You missed the point - in TOS (say, "Tomorrow is Yesterday"), "probe" clearly refers to a sortie into the unknown, and not to the device conducting the sortie. That is a turn of terminology lost on today's audiences. We have to cope with that, just as we have to cope with other silly 1960s concepts such as "plates" and "labs" being involved in medical or astronomical imaging. The words are there, the things they describe thankfully are not. Just as with The Military, for the most part.

Agreed. I think even Beyond had that, with the term Drone with Krall. The current popular mental image of a drone is a flying, remote controlled craft. Here they use it to mean Krall's robot army, who are incapable of working independently. But even the latter stems from drone as in bees and wasps because they share a hive mind; and even before that, TNG used Drone for Borg for the exact same reason, when at the time the Borg were originally designed as an insect race and not the space zombie cyborg variety -- the term "drone" made the transition when filming Q Who, and it's one of the things that made the Borg unique as an adversary back then (hard to believe that, 30 years ago, equating "drone" to a humanoid army wasn't common in sci-fi). It goes to show how, even behind the scenes in Trek, language can morph.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

So now Starfleet is in the same category as the military despite not being the military?

Yes. Just like state defense forces, police forces, irregular militias, resistance groups that don't blend into their population, and political parties (e.g. Hezbollah, the IRA, the Tamil Tigers) that maintain fighting forces. Paramilitary organizations are distinction from military in that they operate LIKE a military without actually having legal sanction from any particular government to officially act as a fighting force on that nation's behalf, and their participation in warfare -- declared or otherwise -- is situational and limited in scope.

In practice, the difference is this: when the United States declares war on French Micronesia for some bullshit reason or another, it's understood that the "combined armed forces of the United States" are now legally required to comply with that declaration along with any orders from the commander in chief to take offensive action against Micronesia. That same declaration doesn't actually apply to state militias, police forces, PMCs (mercenaries) or even technically to state national guard units unless the government specifically names and mobilizes them by an act of law passed by the appropriate local government.

When the Federation gets really pissed off at the Cardassians over border disputes and declares war on them, Starfleet doesn't get involved in that war unless the Federation SPECIFICALLY names them as a party to the conflict and orders them to engage. IOW, the Federation also has to specifically name and mobilize its combatant force in its declaration of war, otherwise nobody would be legally allowed to participate in it. But that's still with CURRENT laws, which were obsolete by 2079 and definitely don't apply to the Federation.

It occurs to me that Starfleet as an organization might not actually get involved in all of the Federation's wars, particularly those involving individual Federation members who still maintain enough sovereignty (and a large enough military of their own) to declare war against non-Federation regional rivals. Kirk alludes to something like this in "Journey to Babel" in which an actual civil war within the Federation was considered a very real possibility, real enough for the Orions to try and start one by killing all the delegates and blaming it on the Andorians.

Sweet shit, it's so much easier to just say Starfleet is a military and the four people who have said otherwise are wrong.

Actually it's easier to say it's a paramilitary organization.

Heh. Fewer words, even!

 

[The Wormhole]

But that's still with CURRENT laws, which were obsolete by 2079

And were presumably re-instated at some point prior to Enterprise. At the very least, they stopped killing lawyers.

 

[WebLurker]

And were presumably re-instated at some point prior to Enterprise. At the very least, they stopped killing lawyers.

We don't know how that worked though? Was the New United Nations reinstated, or did they create new government(s) from scratch to form United Earth?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

And were presumably re-instated at some point prior to Enterprise.

United Earth is not the United Nations; in fact, given the fact that they were placed under world government it's doubtful the Geneva Conventions actually made a comeback either. They would have been thoroughly obsolete on a planet that no longer had any reason to HAVE national militaries let alone the need to distinguish military from civilians.

Apart from the fact that Starfleet is canonically called a non-military organization (and is paramilitary at best) there's the fact that its parent organization explicitly defined itself as a separate entity from MACO, which IS the military as even STB makes clear. The only thing that's ever been unclear about MACO is who and what they actually answer to; are they United Earth's fighting force or just a special ops outfit? Are they a subdivision in a larger military organization or are they the entire thing? Are they even a government agency, or just a private military contractor that -- like Starfleet -- is chartered to serve United Earth and later the Federation? Actually the idea of them being a PMC would make a lot more sense; "MACO" sounds more like a backronym for a gun-heavy private security company than it does for a normal military outfit.

At the very least, they stopped killing lawyers.

They drove them to extinction not long after the last humpback whales.

I wonder if someone out there is sending a lawyer-probe to look for them?

 

[Starship]

After to watch the movie yesterday, I think the Franklin is a car with wings, brought by Lin from Fast and Furious.
For me, Beyond is almost so bad as Into Darkness...

 

[The Wormhole]

The only thing that's ever been unclear about MACO is who and what they actually answer to; are they United Earth's fighting force or just a special ops outfit? Are they a subdivision in a larger military organization or are they the entire thing? Are they even a government agency, or just a private military contractor that -- like Starfleet -- is chartered to serve United Earth and later the Federation? Actually the idea of them being a PMC would make a lot more sense; "MACO" sounds more like a backronym for a gun-heavy private security company than it does for a normal military outfit.

The MACOs are part of the US military. They use US military rank insignia, and Major Hayes is a graduate of West Point.

 

[WebLurker]

After to watch the movie yesterday, I think the Franklin is a car with wings, brought by Lin from Fast and Furious.
For me, Beyond is almost so bad as Into Darkness...

I'm not so sure. Excusing the engine room (which had been trashed and creatively repaired using salvaged parts and kit-bashing) and the window instead of the viewscreen on the bridge, the Franklin is easily the most authentic Star Trek ship in a Trek movie since Nemesis. Whoever designed this one did their homework.

 

[Cyke101]

the Franklin is easily the most authentic Star Trek ship in a Trek movie since Nemesis.

Could you elaborate on Nemesis? Not challenging, just interested to hear your thoughts on it.

As for the Franklin, I agree. In my mind she really flew no differently than the NX-01 -- to me they're both nimble, graceful ships making the same types of arcing turns at sublight. Both ships probably can fly circles around the JJPrise.

 

[WebLurker]

Could you elaborate on Nemesis? Not challenging, just interested to hear your thoughts on it.

Two things. I'm not really wild about the ship and set designs in the first two Kelvin timeline movies, largely since they look so out of place in the Star Trek universe. Nemesis had the Sovereign-class Enterprise (one of by top three favorite ship classes in the franchise). The Romulans ships also looked more like what I was expecting. They looked more solid and real, like they had rough plating and actual working components under the hood. I overall thought the designs were novel but still looked like they belonged in the world.

Now, I can understand that the Kelvin movies may have been trying to draw from the more minimalist look of TOS, which is more stylized than the rest of the franchise is. But, I don't think it really worked, esp. since I don't think the TOS look really works on the big screen. Now, I love the TOS look (the TV Enterprise is my favorite ship in the franchise), but I don't need it all over the place.

It also didn't help that I thought the alt-Enterprise's neck looked too thick and too far back, unbalancing the ship. I also wished that it didn't have so much white-gray and only blue; I really like the reds and orange on the TOS ship for contrast. To many cold colors and it looks sterile.

As for the Franklin, I agree. In my mind she really flew no differently than the NX-01 -- to me they're both nimble, graceful ships making the same types of arcing turns at sublight. Both ships probably can fly circles around the JJPrise.

The funny thing is, as much as I disliked it in the first two movies, the Kelvin timeline original Enterprise earned my respect in Beyond and I was sorry to see it go. I think it might be because we saw less of the sets that really bugged me (like the engineering rooms) and it was a really good fight sequence that was fresh, new, exciting, but didn't seem pointless. The ship gave as good as she got and, while I knew it was going down, when it actually happened, I was sad to see it happen, a far cry from my predictions from the trailer alone that I would be happy to see it get smashed up.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The MACOs are part of the US military. They use US military rank insignia, and Major Hayes is a graduate of West Point.

First of all, do we even know for a fact that the United States even exists as part of United Earth?

Second of all, THAT doesn't make it part of the U.S. military at all; state police and corrections officers ALSO use U.S. military rank insignia (sergeant chevrons, captains bars, etc) and a number of their officers are ALSO west point graduates.

Third, even if you were correct, wouldn't that sort of contradict the entire point of "disbanding" MACO since it was a military organization belonging to a SINGLE nation state? There'd be no reason to disband it at all in that case, they'd just send them all home to do whatever it was they weren't doing before Starfleet existed.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

First of all, do we even know for a fact that the United States even exists as part of United Earth?

Yes, we do. Look at the Section 31 arc (Affliction/Divergence) on ENT. When Agent Harris is contacting Malcolm, he gives an address that is clearly identifiable as part of the USA.

And as I've said before, a given governmental organization doesn't cease to exist simply because it becomes part of a larger one. Individual states still exist as part of the USA; the USA is part of United Earth; and of course United Earth is a member world of the Federation.

 

[The Wormhole]

First of all, do we even know for a fact that the United States even exists as part of United Earth?

Yes, the United States is mentioned as a still existing political entity in the Voyager episode Imperfection. In the novels POTUS visits San Francisco after the Breen attack, which is repelled by the National Guard.

Third, even if you were correct, wouldn't that sort of contradict the entire point of "disbanding" MACO since it was a military organization belonging to a SINGLE nation state? There'd be no reason to disband it at all in that case, they'd just send them all home to do whatever it was they weren't doing before Starfleet existed.

Considering this is the same dialogue which erroneously says Starfleet is non-military, I see no reason to take anything there at face value. Or, it's proof of what Simon Pegg was saying about even the Kelvin Timeline's past prior to Nero's arrival being different.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yes, we do. Look at the Section 31 arc (Affliction/Divergence) on ENT. When Agent Harris is contacting Malcolm, he gives an address that is clearly identifiable as part of the USA.

And as I've said before, a given governmental organization doesn't cease to exist simply because it becomes part of a larger one. Individual states still exist as part of the USA; the USA is part of United Earth; and of course United Earth is a member world of the Federation.

So one for three... still missing is anything that establishes MACO as actually answering to the United States or any part thereof. Also missing is any reason why what is by definition a local militia would be disbanded in the first place and/or subsumed by Starfleet. The same could presumably be said for the Royal Navy: there's no REASON for Starfleet to absorb the assets of that organization either.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Considering this is the same dialogue which erroneously says Starfleet is non-military

It's not erroneous, it's just very revealing. It also tells us something about MACO we didn't know before: namely, it firmly establishes that MACO was disbanded and no longer co-exists with Starfleet.

The question is WHY? If it's a local military organization answering to a single nation state, there's no reason for Starfleet to absorb them at all. If, on the other hand, it's the military organization of the broader United Earth, then a consolidation of UE's offworld resources under a single umbrella makes a certain amount of sense.

I see no reason to take anything there at face value. Or, it's proof of what Simon Pegg was saying about even the Kelvin Timeline's past prior to Nero's arrival being different.

Except that Picard said the exact same thing in "Peak Performance", as did Archer numerous times in ENT. Pegg is actually being consistent with what's already been firmly established in canon; it's your assumptions about Starfleet that are (at least 30 years) out of date.

Let's be clear: it was first established in TNG that Starfleet is not a military organization. You, and many others, ignore that reference because it doesn't suit your sensibilities. But then Enterprise followed up with this theme, so the new narrative was that it WASN'T a military organization but later became one. So now STD establishes that, not only was it non-military in the 22nd, it never became one in the 23rd, and still wasn't one in the 24th. Consistency is restored.

 

[The Wormhole]

The same could presumably be said for the Royal Navy: there's no REASON for Starfleet to absorb the assets of that organization either.

It's what Starfleet does. On DS9 they did say that if Bajor entered the Federation, the Bajoran Militia would be absorbed into Starfleet. From Rapture:

WHATLEY: Not sorry enough to return my comm. signals. All three of them. That could get an officer in a lot of trouble. Look, Ben, I need to know that I can count on you. Now, Bajor's admission is only the beginning. Now comes the hard part. Federation council members have to be chosen, the Bajoran militia has to be absorbed into Starfleet. There are thousands of details that have to be overseen and you're our point man here. That means we need to depend on you more than ever.

 

[WebLurker]

Considering this is the same dialogue which erroneously says Starfleet is non-military, I see no reason to take anything there at face value.

That's not an error, since Starfleet was established to be not a military in "Peak Performance" (TNG).

Or, it's proof of what Simon Pegg was saying about even the Kelvin Timeline's past prior to Nero's arrival being different.

Pegg's statement is not only non-canon, it also conflicts with canonical sources.

It's what Starfleet does. On DS9 they did say that if Bajor entered the Federation, the Bajoran Militia would be absorbed into Starfleet.

Could that be a special circumstance, given Bajor's position?

 

[The Wormhole]

it also conflicts with canonical sources.

Such as?

Could that be a special circumstance, given Bajor's position?

Oh okay. Picard says Starfleet isn't military, therefore Starfleet isn't military, end of discussion. We get a line indicating Starfleet absorbs the military forces of a planet when it joins the Federation, but that's just unique circumstances. So when canon doesn't line up with our world-view of Star Trek we cherry-pick which we accept as dogmatic fact based on what was spoken in canon?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

We get a line indicating Starfleet absorbs the military forces of a planet when it joins the Federation, but that's just unique circumstances.

Well it IS unique circumstances, being Bajor and all. The question of whether or not a member's military forces USUALLY get absorbed into Starfleet isn't actually actually settled by "Rapture", only that they were planning on doing this on Bajor (and even then we don't know what form that "absorption" would take; Whatley never says they'll be DISBANDED after all).

So when canon doesn't line up with our world-view of Star Trek we cherry-pick which we accept as dogmatic fact based on what was spoken in canon?

Some people take an evidence-based view of these kinds of things:
1) What does the evidence actually show?
2) What does the evidence merely suggest by implication?
3) What does the evidence NOT suggest but we infer for other reasons?

In this case:
The evidence actually shows that Starfleet is not a military organization.
The evidence suggests that Starfleet is a paramilitary organization that participates in combat actions as part of its secondary mission (primary, of course, being exploration and research). It also suggests that in some cases it integrates armed forces of member units into its own structure at various times
The evidence does not explain why or when it does this (always? Sometimes? Only when the prospective member requests it?) or if it only does this with military organizations or other non-military ones (e.g. Memory Alpha, UESPA, The Vulcan Space Service). One clue is that they don't absorb law-enforcement agencies or intelligence services in all cases, so in Bajor's case it's possible they were only going to absorb the militia's space force branch, in which case Watley wasn't talking about the Bajoran militia AS A WHOLE, but was specifically referring to their personnel and command structure on Deep Space Nine.

 

[The Wormhole]

One clue is that they don't absorb law-enforcement agencies or intelligence services in all cases,

Starfleet does handle law-enforcement, DS9 implied this and Ron Moore confirmed that was the intent when written.