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Spoilers Why wasn't the Franklin and NX class ship?

The Soviet space shuttle prototype Buran looked almost exactly like the NASA Space Shuttles. I think the US Air Force's prototype shuttle design was very similar too.)

A better design actually. Instead of SSMEs on the orbiter feeding off a huge drop tank, the hydrogen engines were under the External Tank itself (Energiya HLLV--like SLS).

One early pre-Buran design was to be able to take off under its own power for hops (OK-92) and the Buran analog had jets on it, unlike Enterprise.
 
@Christopher, I like the idea of the ship patches from TOS being those of different Starfleet divisions. But there are more patches that you haven't explained yet. How would you recognize those worn by the Exeter and Defiant crews? What divisions do you suppose they belong to?
 
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First off, you're doubling down on the same mistake that I just pointed out: Equating "military" with "warlike." Calling something military is not about whether its purpose is war, peace, or exploration. It's about whether it's a government-sanctioned armed service with a rank structure. There are military bodies whose primary purpose is peaceful, like the US Coast Guard or the Army Corps of Engineers, and there are military bodies whose purpose is scientific, exploratory, diplomatic, etc. (Starfleet is largely based on the British Navy in the age of exploration. Its ships did a lot to advance the cause of science and discovery.) After all, it's not like the military ceases to exist when there isn't a war on. Militaries have a wide range of different responsibilities, many of which are peaceful. So your quotes about Starfleet's mission being peaceful or scientific are not relevant to this issue.

With all due respect, my intent was to double down on the fact that within the shows themselves, Starfleet has been said to be not a military (pretty black-and-white). In retrospect, some of the quotes I picked were kind of weak (like the Voyage Home one), so I get your point.

Also, if you want to play the quote game, there are canonical quotes that explicitly do define Starfleet as military. In "Errand of Mercy," Kirk tells the Organians what Starfleet can offer them, including "military aid."

There was a war, and no one's denying that Starfleet will pitch in when that happens. The question is, do they do that as a military, or as another organization? (That might seem like a stupid question, but we have canonical evidence that it's not a military, so I think it's worth asking. It's also a more interesting conversation than just dismissing one side as a script error or the result of something the creators didn't think out, or whatever.)

In "Obsession," he asks Garrovick for his "military appraisal of the techniques used against the creature."

A simple way to label tactical analysis?

Garth of Izar refers to Kirk as "one of the finest military commanders in the galaxy," and though Kirk says he prefers to think of himself as a man of peace, he doesn't refute Garth's characterization.

Garth is also totally wacko at this point, so everything he says needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Case in point, his explosive. Did he event a powerful explosive? Yeah. Was it the most destructive force in the Galaxy, like he said? Probably not. Could Kirk be good leader in battle? Yeah (see "Balance of Terror" [TOS])? Does that automatically make him a soldier? No, since Kirk could have had tactical training with or without being in the military.

In "The Way to Eden," Kirk says the Romulans will see the Enterprise's presence in the Neutral Zone as "a military incursion."

What the Romulans would see it as may not ascribe to objective reality.

David Marcus twice refers to Starfleet as "the military" in TWOK.

Maybe. I have wondered about this one on occasion. However, Marcus is not really an expert on Starfleet, so, comparing his statement with Picard's from TNG, the latter would be more accurate, since Picard would know exactly what line of work he is in. It's hearsay, like you think Worf and phasers are, IMHO (and I think that Worf is a more credible source on phaser history than Marcus is on Starfleet). Also, at least one of the times (when claiming that scientists have always been the pawns of the military), Marcus is pretty agitated.

In "The Icarus Factor," Picard cited Riker's "military proficiency."

See the comment for the "Obsession" example.

In "The Most Toys," Fajo called Data "a military pacifist" and wondered why he was in Starfleet if he didn't believe in taking life.

Like Marcus, Fajo is not necessarily an accurate source of info on Starfleet and is actively trying to manipulate Data.

In "Paradise Lost," Sisko refered to Admiral Leyton's plan to impose Starfleet control over Earth as "military rule" and "a military dictatorship."

That's what Leyton wanted to create. I'm not sure that's conclusive proof, since one could argue that Sisko was using a technically incorrect term to convey the practical end result, however, I never saw this episode, so I don't have enough details to really comment on this.

And while we're at it, there are a number of instances of characters using the word "civilian" to refer to non-Starfleet personnel. In "The Perfect Mate," Picard said "I have confidence in the self-control of my crew, Kamala, but there are guests and civilians on board." In "Lower Decks," Ben said "I'm not Starfleet, I'm a civilian." In "All Good Things," O'Brien referred to "Freighters, transports, all civilians. None of them Starfleet ships."

I honestly took it that non-Starfleet people would be called civilians, to distinguish them from those in service (like how workers in a factory could call non-employees "civilians, "despite not being military). So, I don't think this one really supports either side.

So the instances of Starfleet being explicitly called military and non-civilian outnumber those few instances where writers mistakenly make characters say that it isn't military.

Starfleet has never been called a military anywhere in the canon in word, so we have far more instances where it's not called one. And "writers mistakenly make characters say that it isn't military"? That's the exact same argument I was using for the arrowhead patches. I'm confused, what's the difference here that it's a valid model of explanation (esp. given that we have concrete evidence, instead of needing to guess based on some odd props that were never explained)?

And of course, we've seen that Starfleet does defend the Federation in wartime, plus it has ranks, uniforms, and courts-martial. It overtly and routinely functions as a military. There's nothing else it could be.

Ranks and uniforms could be used completely divorced from their military origins (like the Salvation Army and the Boy Scouts prove). The court-martial I can kind of see, unless Starfleet borrowed the term for their own review and discipline hearings. Question: could a civilian represent the defendant in a real military court-martial, like in "Court Martial" (TOS)? (In all honestly, I think Starfleet is a sort of paramilitary organization that has no true analog to any modern organization, given that they undertake some military operations despite explicitly not a military. I think that divides the difference, as you put it with the patch question.)

As far as Starfleet defending the Federation, yeah, one of its services is to defend the Federation, however, that is not what it was chartered for, is not it's main objective. Even if a military works on scientific and humanitarian projects during times of peace, it's first duty is still to defend it's nation. For Starfleet that's a secondary objective, at best?

Also, if it were a military craft, how would that work with it's exploration? Would be an act of war if it went into another nation's borders by accident? I mean, what would the legal ramifications be of sending warships to explore the unknown?

Have any of the people who worked on the show addressed the military question, by any chance?

Good grief, you're not even trying to think about this. You're just ignoring everything I say and repeating your same unquestioned assumptions. I'm talking about the laws of physics. That overrides everything else. Think of wheels. Think of boats. Think of all the things that are always the same shape because they physically have to be, because there is simply no other design for them that can perform that function. Every alien civilization in the universe would be bound by those same laws of physics, and thus their designs would have to conform to certain unavoidable basics.

Darn it man, I'm a graphic designer, not an engineer!

In all seriousness, it would help if I knew which components "needed" to look alike and which could vary, given that I have no frame of reference any of that. You're insisting that they must look the same, but have no idea what parts to even analyze here.
 
The classic "Starfleet is not a Military" issue is amusingly closely related to Starfleet indeed being Earth's sole space combat organization - not only do we hear of no competition at the times of the "The Expanse", "Peak Performance" and ST:ID remarks about the non-Militariness, but Starfleet is explicitly gearing up for heavy fighting in the very adventures!

We know little of Starfleet's intended or chartered role or whatnot, as such things have not been explicated in the onscreen adventures. The old United Earth organization apparently did little or no exploring until Archer and NX-01 came along, yet did exist as such, and apparently also possessed plenty of fighting vessels - "The Expanse" shows us a few, and these must predate NX-01 judging by the low-end (i.e. extreme hurry) estimate for construction time we get from NX-02. Yet the United Federation of Planets organization appears to have started out with a pronouncedly noncombat role, frustrating the bloodlusty Edison. However, even this last tidbit we only learned a few months ago: until then, the earliest days of UFP Starfleet were a totally unknown era.

Should we thus seek for a contradiction between a theoretical charter and the practical combat reality, to explain the outbursts by our heroes? There's little evidence for the theoretical charter, but little to preclude it, either. We do have the "Ex Astris Scientia" motto which would be a bit insincere compared with the USN "Semper Fortis", were the two organizations to have exactly analogous roles to play...

Or should we just assume interservices rivalry here? There could exist many fighting organizations side by side, and back in the 2150s there explicitly did. We just need to decide whether their roles overlapped or not. Starfleet had its own onboard infantry before the MACO came along, but did the Military have starships? Was Forrest worried about Archer's reaction because the Military had never set foot on Starfleet vessels before - or because it frequently did and always got into deep trouble?

In any case, here we already have a futuristic definition of Military that has little to do with combat prowess and everything to do with Not Being Starfleet. Essentially, the same thing that was common just a couple of hundred years ago: Military referred exclusively to a ground army and could not be used for referring to a Navy. Since TOS forces us to believe in the readoption of outdated terminology anyway, we could just as well readopt the original definition of Military here and avoid all contradictions. Of course the heroes aren't from the Army, as they are from the Navy, and having Army aboard their ships might result in bloodletting in the worst case. Of course they won't do mindless Army drills, as they fight with their highbrow Naval skills instead. And of course they balk at being used as pawns in Army campaigns when they have far better things to do, including fighting.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Again -- UESPA was first introduced in TOS as the organization that the Enterprise answered to, before the writers came up with Starfleet. That used to be seen as just a continuity error, but the canonical use of UESPA in VGR and ENT (and in the Enterprise-B dedication plaque) suggests that UESPA is a division of Starfleet.

The interpretation I've used in my Rise of the Federation novels, which is what I've been describing here, is that UESPA is the organization that operated the United Earth Starfleet as seen in ENT. (Makes sense to me -- United Earth Space Probe Agency, United Earth Starfleet.) This is suggested by the combined UESPA/Starfleet Command logo seen in "Demons"/"Terra Prime." In the books, as I believe I already stated earlier in this thread, the Federation Starfleet begins as the merger of the founder worlds' respective space services, and the various ship logos seen in TOS represent those various services. I assume that over time, Starfleet becomes more unified, and what started out as separate planets' space agencies become merely administrative subdivisions within Starfleet, thus allowing us to reconcile Kirk's Enterprise answering to UESPA as well as Starfleet.

This is entirely off topic, but I'm just now in the process of reading your Rise of the Federation novels (I'm nearly finished with Tower of Babel) and I'm really enjoying them very much. And I love how you manage to fit all the pieces of the Star Trek puzzle together so neatly. Over the years I've seen and read lots of interviews in which writers complain about the constraints of working within canon. But your work here (and in DTI) demonstrates that there are so many great stories to tell within the established universe and so many ways to build upon that universe without trashing what came before. You're a brilliant and prolific writer, creative and yet respectful, and I just want to say thank you for many hours of genuine enjoyment. Keep up the good work, please.
 
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Starfleet has never been called a military anywhere in the canon in word,
No? Homefront, the Federation President himself refers to Starfleet as a military:
JARESH-INYO: (reads the PADD) Hmm. I understand the need for increased security, but blood screenings? Phaser sweeps?
SISKO: They've proven very effective on Deep Space Nine.
JARESH-INYO: I'm sure they have. But I hope you'll keep in mind that this is Earth, and not a military installation.
Or is this written off as "the station is a military installation because it was built by the Cardassians, not by the Federation"?

Blaze of Glory, Quark talks refers to the station's personnel as military:
KIRA: What exactly was it that you were talking to him about?
QUARK: All I said was that the military personnel on this station were starting to look a little nervous. When they get nervous, I get nervous
Oh, let me guess, "military personnel" obviously doesn't include Starfleet?
Also, if it were a military craft, how would that work with it's exploration? Would be an act of war if it went into another nation's borders by accident? I mean, what would the legal ramifications be of sending warships to explore the unknown?
Exploration was done by the military in the past. No one seemed to have any problem watching Stargate seeing armed US military personnel toting around assault rifles and submachine guns calling themselves peaceful explorers, and that show even had a USAF advisor. So you tell us, why can't the military handle exploration?
Have any of the people who worked on the show addressed the military question, by any chance?
Nick Meyer said he always assumed Starfleet was military, even though Paramount insisted it wasn't because Roddenberry said it wasn't. Ron Moore also said he considers Starfleet military, but never elaborated further.
 
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No? Homefront, the Federation President himself refers to Starfleet as a military:

Or is this written off as "the station is a military installation because it was built by the Cardassians, not by the Federation"?

Unless the president was just comparing the measures to military-like procedures, regardless of whether the fleet is the military or not? (Haven't seen the show, so I can't make any really accurate comments.)

Blaze of Glory, Quark talks refers to the station's personnel as military:

Oh, let me guess, "military personnel" obviously doesn't include Starfleet?

Quark is not an expert on Starfleet, so he could be mistaken or generalizing. I honestly find the "Homefront" example to be better evidence.

Exploration was done by the military in the past. No one seemed to have any problem watching Stargate seeing armed US military personnel toting around assault rifles and submachine guns calling themselves peaceful explorers, and that show even had a USAF advisor. So you tell us, why can't the military handle exploration?

I was just curious about implications of this (and trying to steer the topic onto something else, since the military question can't really be proven that well, since we have hard evidence on both sides).

Nick Meyer said he always assumed Starfleet was military, even though Paramount insisted it wasn't because Roddenberry said it wasn't. Ron Moore also said he considers Starfleet military, but never elaborated further.

Okay.
 
Roddenberry himself calls The Enterprise a military vessel.

Gene Roddenbery said:
Is the starship U.S.S. Enterprise a military vessel?
Yes, but only semi-military in practice -- omitting features which are heavily authoritarian. For example, we are not aware of "officers" and "enlisted men" categories. And we avoid saluting and other annoying medieval leftovers. On the other hand, we do keep a flavor of Naval usage and terminology to help encourage believability and identifica- tion by the audience. After all, our own Navy today still retains remnants of tradition known to Nelson and Drake.
 
Also because Tuesdays are when all the gear is loaded (photon torpedoes, tractor beams, etc.).

In the meantime, do you know what the odds are against having a Royal Fizzbin?
 
Ive always thought of them as kinda quasi-military as obviously they are one but certain Officers don't generally consider themselves as military and instead as explorers.

That would be consistent with comments made by nuScotty, Spock and Picard as well as Kirk who seemed to describe Starfleet as one or the other based on who he was talking to. Others like Sisko I imagine considered Starfleet to be much the same; an organisation for peaceful exploration but when the time comes will step up to their (military) role as defenders of the Federation (and depending on how optimistic the Officer the defenders of the peace) while the likes of Marcus, Cartwright and Leyton probably see the service as more of a military especially with their concerns (and in some cases paranoia)
 
Ive always thought of them as kinda quasi-military as obviously they are one but certain Officers don't generally consider themselves as military and instead as explorers.

That would be consistent with comments made by nuScotty, Spock and Picard as well as Kirk who seemed to describe Starfleet as one or the other based on who he was talking to. Others like Sisko I imagine considered Starfleet to be much the same; an organisation for peaceful exploration but when the time comes will step up to their (military) role as defenders of the Federation (and depending on how optimistic the Officer the defenders of the peace) while the likes of Marcus, Cartwright and Leyton probably see the service as more of a military especially with their concerns (and in some cases paranoia)

Not a bad compromise. The problem though, is that whenever the "Starfleet is not military" statement is trotted out, it's not given any real wiggle room, so the statements make no sense if its just Picard and Kelvin Scotty's opinion.
 
When I was watching Beyond I assumed that the Franklin design was somewhat older than the NX-01 Enterprise. Fairly similar in appearance, almost a precursor for the NX class, but built before the Warp 5 program bore fruit.
 
When I was watching Beyond I assumed that the Franklin design was somewhat older than the NX-01 Enterprise. Fairly similar in appearance, almost a precursor for the NX class, but built before the Warp 5 program bore fruit.

They must be older when these were the first ships outfitted with the first Warp-4-engines.
 
Yes, rRico.

Maybe the Franklin class came after the Daedalus class, and before the NX-01 Enterprise?
 
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