Why was the last episode of DS9 so incredibly awful?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by ElimGarak, Apr 21, 2012.

  1. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Aug 18, 2008
    Indiana, USA
    That was just an estimate - 28, 31, 27 seconds...something like that. As to how they test goldfishes' memory, I imagine quizzes using tiny little waterproof mazes and the like.
  2. Sykonee

    Sykonee Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Apr 11, 2003
    West Coast of Canada
    Thing with the re-used battle footage in WYLB is it nicked one of the most iconic shots from Sacrifice Of Angels, so it stood out far more than any typical re-used footage. Though it's funny how they re-used the battle footage from Yesterday's Enterprise in Redemption, and no one really complains about that. Shouldn't there be a bigger budget available for Season Finales?

    Still, it sure is odd seeing the same 'Garak fleeing an explosion' shot from Dogs Of War in with all the other exploding shots during WYLB's space battle.:p
  3. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

    Mar 8, 2001
    Great Britain
    Remember that a large portion of the budget for any episode is taken upby things like gust stars and in WYLB we had guest characters :-

    Female Founder
    Kai Winn
    Admiral Ross
    Chancellor Martok
    Cassiday Yates


    TV reuses footage all of the time as a cost saving measure so that money can be spend elsewhere.
  4. Farrens

    Farrens Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Aug 11, 2009
    That whole arc was horrid. Dukat was a favored villain/anti-hero of mine before season 7. I tend to just delete out the whole thing when i think of the end.

    Otherwise I felt it wrapped up things nicely, giving us a general feeling where each of the characters we had grown to know over the years was headed.

    As far as my favorite ending? All Good Things gets my vote, with DS9 coming second. 3/4 is hard for me neither Voyager nor Ent's ending were particularly good.
  5. ElimGarak

    ElimGarak Ensign Red Shirt

    Apr 21, 2012
    To be more specific:

    I thought Dukat's character became completely absurd. The entire scene with him and Kai Winn chanting in the fire caves would have fit better in "Ernest Scared Stupid" than in any semi-serious scifi series.

    also, and this bothered me the most, the black and white flashbacks for the main characters felt like really bad tv drama kitsch. I half expected to hear Dawson's Creek theme music playing in the background.
  6. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Aug 18, 2008
    Indiana, USA
    ^ We're just going to have to agree to disagree. Dukat is indeed a fabulous character, but the way I saw it at the time (I haven't seen the episode in years, but I recently received season 7 as a present, yay!), Dukat had to do something dramatic, either dramatically good or dramatically evil - he is just not a middle-of-the-road kind of guy. And he chose evil. Which was, for him, a perfectly legitimate choice. Maybe it will strike me differently when I rewatch it.
  7. Gary7

    Gary7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    OP joins and just two days later posts a highly contentious stab at DS9 as their first order of business? :vulcan:
  8. JustKate

    JustKate Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Aug 18, 2008
    Indiana, USA
    Maybe, Gary, it's been eating at him for, like, years?
  9. Shatnertage

    Shatnertage Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Feb 20, 2010
    Ward Fowler's gofer.
    I'm not crazy about DS9's finale. There were a lot of problems with it (some good things, too), but I think the main issue was that the writers were too concerned with wrapping up the plot(s) and not focused enough on the story. Sisko at the beginning is charged with getting Bajor into the Federation and being there for his son. So in the last episode he seemingly voluntarily leaves Starfleet, Bajor, and his son to live with the Prophets. And poor Jake, abandoned by his father...it just didn't seem right.

    AGT, on the other hand, had a pretty thin plot, but did a great job of thematically wrapping up the TNG story.

    As far as overall quality, I'd put TNG, DS9, and VOY all on the same level, each excelling in some areas, with ENT slightly behind them.
  10. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Dec 26, 2007
    Baltimore, MD
    I'm not saying they had to make lots of new footage; just don't reuse footage from an episode whose battle was still fresh in my mind. I'd rather not see any footage at all than reused footage, but that's just me.

    Thank you for calling me a complete nerd. I love you too.

    So you condemned the entire two-hour series finale as a contrived pile of garbage because of those two factors?
  11. Balrog

    Balrog Commodore Commodore

    Jan 12, 2008
    I loved DS9 and the DS9 ending. I found it quite satisfying and ended exactly the way the writers wanted it to end.

    That's the one gripe I have with fandom - people gripe about what THEY want happen. I'm satisfied they got to tell their story how they wanted.
  12. The Dominion War stuff was generally good, as was the sense of closure for many of the characters. But the Sisko and Path Wraiths stuff is pretty awful. Its clear the writers didn't really know what they were doing with that whole thread. They didn't plot it out well.
  13. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Dec 22, 2001
    I'm sure they had budget issues with the final episode. I swear I read somewhere that they overspent earlier in the season/throughout the season and that hamstrung them a bit for the final.

    Can't find where I read that but here is something from MA on the finale in relation to the cost of using Farrell's images for the finale and why they weren't used.

    So it probably did have a bigger budget, but it was still not enough for what they wanted to do.
  14. M-Red

    M-Red Commander Red Shirt

    May 26, 2009
    I enjoyed WYLB very much. It was bold, and I thought it was epic on multiple story fronts. It also gave us the goodbyes and narrative conclusions that I look for in a series finale.

    (*Otoh, I don't hold the lack of conclusions against AGT, since it was supposed to be a capstone for the show while also being a transitional story for JLP and the crew..)

    For a TV finale, WYLB covers a lot of ground and contains some great moments and heavy material.
    -the invasion of Cardassia
    -the final death of Weyoun
    -the razing of Cardassia
    -Martok's "victory" toast
    -the treating signing
    -goodbyes and Vic's song
    -multiple love stories between characters
    -the Sisko-Dukat showdown
    -the farewell montage
    -Odo and the Great Link
    -a fantastic final fade-away shot to the music...

    Really -- did you truly think Sisko was going to "die?" It took some courage for them to really do that....

    And who didn't like this?


  15. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

    Jan 2, 2011
    Sacramento, CA
    I basically enjoyed WYLB, my only issue with it, was the timing of getting down into the Firecaves (Dukhat/Winn measured agaisnt the Dominion War being tied up vs. The seeming minutes it took Sisko to get there after the Treaty signing).

    As far as where they went with that part of the story, to me, it fit perfectly into the rest of the Prophets/Pah Wraiths/Emissary story arc. And I'm so confused by all these folks who say Ben abandoned Jake and went off to live with the Prophets. It's not like Sisko contacted the Prophets and "Said, OK, I'm ready, carry me home to the Celestial Temple". He fought with Dukhat, to defeat the Pah Wraiths and they fell into a pit, which the Prophets grabbed him up from, and brought him to the Celestial Temple. He didn't go to the Fire Caves with the intention or knowldge he would not be returning to the Station.
  16. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    The Pah-Wraith story was ill-developed. It could have been interesting, with the build up over several episodes of events none of the main characters are aware of and it just kind of ends very suddenly.

    Otherwise, I didn't think the finale was that bad. It wasn't great, but I liked how they basically wrapped up most of the story early so we could spend some time saying goodbye to the characters.
  17. gazomg

    gazomg Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Apr 13, 2010
    The Peoples Republic of Cork
    and Garak gets to go home..................to whats left of it
  18. myselfeneye

    myselfeneye Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Jul 25, 2008
    Fairfax, VA
    The ending was exactly what it needed to be. It suited everything that happened in the series, much like All Good Things was about everything that TNG had been about in its 7-year run; TNG had tons of temporal anomalies, bonding betweeen a very close crew, Q, humanity being tested...and DS9 was about hardship, overcoming adversity, loads of combat, and The Prophets. I get that this is a vast oversimplification and there's plenty I've ignored. Bear with me.

    Sisko was for Bajor, that's right--which is why he had to defeat Dukat. He did that for Bajor. And the Pah-Wraiths had come up before. Remember The Reckoning? Remember the episode where Dukat tried to induct Kira into his Pah-Wraith cult on Empok Nor? Spooky stuff.
  19. cml898

    cml898 Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Jul 16, 2009
    The DS9 Finale wasn't quite all it was meant to be but I fully believe and accept that the writers did the best they could under difficult behind the scenes circumstances. Having read the official DS9 companion I know that plans were made so the writers of the finale could really take their time and get it right. Then people got sick and they had to fill in here and there and other stuff came up and in the end they just didn't have the time they'd hoped for. I still think it turned out great. I'm not bothered by any of the Pah Wraith stuff and pretty much enjoyed everything they did. But having read all that I can't help but wonder what might have been if the best laid plans hadn't crumbled somewhat.
  20. Gagarin

    Gagarin Commander Red Shirt

    Sep 19, 2007
    Better than AGT. Not because AGT was bad, but because DS9 was serialized, so there was years long tension and bondings coming apart and together. Character arcs arced after 7 years. It was... cathartic, while AGT really had to set up catharsis in 90 minutes by its own or by exploiting allusions.

    Jadzia being dead harms the episode (and being absent from stock footage also does, but to a lesser degree). Also missing is a scene of watching the Dominion actually retreat back to the Gamma quadrant - that could have been rewarding.