Why *was* the bridge turbolift offset?

[Christopher]

The fan-made Enterprise Officer's Manual said the pod was the little nib at the bottom of the lower saucer dome, although we now know from the model restoration that was actually meant to be a sensor array and had a rod-shaped, presumably aimable sensor emitter sticking out. TOS Remastered established the pod as the lighted dome on the starboard engineering hull just below the hangar deck observation windows.

 

[C57D]

That would certainly make it easier for Finney to access "B Deck" I suppose!

For my money, I reckon the Ion Pod comes out of the centre of those 3 holes at the front of the saucer. It's the best place to do sensor work on the upcoming ion storm, since it is at the leading edge of the ship.

I would like that idea if Finneys hiding place had not been in Engineering. Then again, we dont know what is in the half height spaces at the curved bottom of the saucer. Maybe various technical bits and bobs - life support and recycling etc? Plenty crawlspaces to hide in maybe?

Anyway apologies if I have started something here, I was just trying to be funny about the discussion over the TL shaft to the bridge. Its amazing how little we must have left to discuss that the only two options take up four pages?

I know I should listen to my wife more often..................?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Heck, the whole "Flint shrinks the Enterprise and by the way also freezes it in time" plot point was totally gratuitous and nonsensical anyway; the viewscreen silliness is one of its lesser problems. (Between TOS and Space: 1999, it's clear that a hallmark of Fred Freiberger's approach to science fiction was giving the antagonists whatever random, extreme, and nonsensical superpowers were convenient to the plot at a given moment.)

It was gratuitous in a good way. It certainly gratified me as a boy in the 1970s, crazy about model kits and so on. Seeing the 3-footer appear like that and getting a decent look at it was riveting.

Also, for a boy, this was an even greater thing from an in-universe standpoint. It was fun to imagine having the actual Enterprise shrunk down like that and made so accessible. The show was giving us a fantasy in which your tabletop model could embody the ship itself and still be in the room with you.

Today, my in-universe explanation is that Flint used a massive transporter system to dematerialize the ship and suspend it in transit (in the pattern buffer, as TNG would say). The model was just a holographic image, and no actual miniaturization was involved. The shots of Kirk's face on the viewscreen, and the frozen bridge crew, were not literal but just portrayals of what Kirk imagined he would see if he could look inside. We saw what he was picturing in his mind.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Seems like if Finney was back there, they could have just knocked on the wall to let him know to come out.

 

[C57D]

Seems like if Finney was back there, they could have just knocked on the wall to let him know to come out.

Maybe thats why the TMP upgrade had two Turbolift shafts. Give Finney less spare space back there?

 

[Mytran]

It also maximises your odds of getting caught when sneaking to your hideout in Main Engineering, regardless of whether you think that is in the engineering hull or saucer aft rim...

I think in this case the engineering section that Finney hides in has to have been in the saucer. There's extensive curving corridors (which would really struggle to fit in the Engineering Hull) but it's also explicitly in "B" Deck (which makes no sense if interpreted as Deck 2 but gels nicely with the widest part of the saucer if "B" stands for "berth", ie where most of the staterooms are).

 

[XCV330]

Yes, it was very early in the morning my time, I was using my phone on a shuttlebus on the way into work, and somehow lost my head for a moment. I actually own a replica of that prop and know better.

But what I find more interesting is that you corrected my spelling of "before" in my original post in the process of quoting me?!

I just wanted to say I used to have a Swan 500CX. Awesome rig, drifty but I really liked it. Mowed lawns for months for it.

73

 

[Christopher]

I think in this case the engineering section that Finney hides in has to have been in the saucer. There's extensive curving corridors (which would really struggle to fit in the Engineering Hull) but it's also explicitly in "B" Deck (which makes no sense if interpreted as Deck 2 but gels nicely with the widest part of the saucer if "B" stands for "berth", ie where most of the staterooms are).

By that logic, we never saw any scenes in the engineering hull, because the only corridor set they had was curved. Sometimes you just have to suspend disbelief and accept that you're watching a television show using the limited number of sets it can afford to build, and use your imagination to gloss over the discrepancy between what they can show and what they intend to convey by it. (For instance, when Starfleet computer console props are used to represent an alien computer center. We're not supposed to believe the technology is actually identical, we're supposed to understand that it's just an approximation of what we're being encouraged to imagine.)

And "B deck" is an anomalous usage; they usually didn't use letter designations for decks except in the TOS movie era. It probably means something other than Deck 2. It could be the second level of the engineering section in the secondary hull. Or maybe it's just a terminology/continuity glitch that we shouldn't take too literally.

 

[Mytran]

By that logic, we never saw any scenes in the engineering hull, because the only corridor set they had was curved. Sometimes you just have to suspend disbelief and accept that you're watching a television show using the limited number of sets it can afford to build, and use your imagination to gloss over the discrepancy between what they can show and what they intend to convey by it. (For instance, when Starfleet computer console props are used to represent an alien computer center. We're not supposed to believe the technology is actually identical, we're supposed to understand that it's just an approximation of what we're being encouraged to imagine.

Nah, Starfleet just uses the same intergalactic supplier of computer terminals as many other planets

As for the curved corridor thing - in fact, we only see the FULL curvature leading to Engineering in a very few episodes - Naked Time, Court Martial and Ultimate Computer (I think). The rest of the time, the corridor is filmed from the other direction, likely portraying a different Engine Room which could easily fit in the Secondary Hull.

And "B deck" is an anomalous usage; they usually didn't use letter designations for decks except in the TOS movie era. It probably means something other than Deck 2. It could be the second level of the engineering section in the secondary hull. Or maybe it's just a terminology/continuity glitch that we shouldn't take too literally.

I think I already said that. Hence my proposal that B=Berth, rather than Deck 2

 

[Christopher]

As for the curved corridor thing - in fact, we only see the FULL curvature leading to Engineering in a very few episodes - Naked Time, Court Martial and Ultimate Computer (I think). The rest of the time, the corridor is filmed from the other direction, likely portraying a different Engine Room which could easily fit in the Secondary Hull.

It's the same engine room, it's just that it was a TV show with only a couple of corridor sets and they had to fake it. It's an overreaction to posit a second identical engine room just because a TV show was unable to create a perfect illusion. They couldn't afford to build both a set of curved corridors for the saucer and a set of straight corridors for the secondary hull, so they built one curved and a couple straight and hoped we wouldn't pay close enough attention to notice when it didn't fit. After all, we're supposed to be paying attention to the plot and dialogue and peformances and drama.

Really, if you think about it, that one corridor set can't always be taken literally even as a saucer corridor, because different concentric corridors in the saucer would have different curvatures. The fact that it only has one curvature means that it can only be an approximation of whatever corridor it's supposed to represent.

 

[Kor]

Nah, Starfleet just uses the same intergalactic supplier of computer terminals as many other planets
...

My hypothesis is that this is some intergalactic "Acme Corp" run by mysterious aliens who we never meet. This also explains how Starfleet systems can communicate with alien systems with no problem whatsoever.

Kor

 

[Maurice]

To be clear, TOS-R clearly didn't establish that empty socket shown on the ship to be the ion pod, albeit it's probably implied. As shown, It's just a hole with the scorching around it. The ship was there for repairs, so it could have been a blown our running light (which is what that feature actually was on the model).

 

[Christopher]

To be clear, TOS-R clearly didn't establish that empty socket shown on the ship to be the ion pod, albeit it's probably implied. As shown, It's just a hole with the scorching around it. The ship was there for repairs, so it could have been a blown our running light (which is what that feature actually was on the model).

I think you mean "didn't clearly establish," as in it's ambiguous, rather than "clearly didn't establish," as in it's unambiguously not so.

Anyway, it was a shot of a missing component being replaced in the ship, and it was in an episode in which the ion pod had been jettisoned. Stories aren't random; things are included in them for a reason, or not at all. So of course it was meant to be the ion pod. I mean, which is more likely -- that the makers of TOS-R were thinking "Oh, let's just spend thousands of dollars creating a random shot of some people changing a light bulb," or that they were thinking "Wow, now we have the opportunity to finally establish where the ion pod was"? It's not even a question.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think you mean "didn't clearly establish," as in it's ambiguous, rather than "clearly didn't establish," as in it's unambiguously not so.

Anyway, it was a shot of a missing component being replaced in the ship, and it was in an episode in which the ion pod had been jettisoned. Stories aren't random; things are included in them for a reason, or not at all. So of course it was meant to be the ion pod. I mean, which is more likely -- that the makers of TOS-R were thinking "Oh, let's just spend thousands of dollars creating a random shot of some people changing a light bulb," or that they were thinking "Wow, now we have the opportunity to finally establish where the ion pod was"? It's not even a question.

The TOS-R shot of the "ion pod location" is not a story element. It's gratuitous fluff of interest only to a small segment of the general viewing audience. The original version of "Court Martial" got by fine without it, and the new shot adds zip to the story.

 

[Maurice]

I think you mean "didn't clearly establish," as in it's ambiguous, rather than "clearly didn't establish," as in it's unambiguously not so.

Anyway, it was a shot of a missing component being replaced in the ship, and it was in an episode in which the ion pod had been jettisoned. Stories aren't random; things are included in them for a reason, or not at all. So of course it was meant to be the ion pod. I mean, which is more likely -- that the makers of TOS-R were thinking "Oh, let's just spend thousands of dollars creating a random shot of some people changing a light bulb," or that they were thinking "Wow, now we have the opportunity to finally establish where the ion pod was"? It's not even a question.

Methinks your conception of how much work it would take to put a small hole in the side of 3-D mesh and slap a burn texture around it is off the charts.

 

[Qonundrum]

The only canonical evidence I'm aware of that even might settle the question is this scene in "The Cage" that was also used in "The Menagerie":

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/0x00/thecage011.jpg

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x00hd/thecagehd0032.jpg

The original VFX are dodgy at best, and they arguably support not only the case that the cylinder immediately aft of the bridge does not align with the elevator doors but also the case that the helm module does not face forward. So, it's really inconclusive.

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x11/themanagerie1_427.jpg

Or like most TV sitcoms, where the exterior of the house or apartment doesn't match up with interior layout due to size displacement, window misplacement, et cetera. Okay, this isn't a sitcom but the same principal of where set designers don't talk to enough model makers/photographers/cartographers/etc to properly scale... woops...

Looking at the screencap, it almost looks as if the cylinder in back is for the turbolift and black rectangle at the other end (straight line) is supposed to represent a viewscreen window (?!). But it's too small... and is the dome one deck (bridge only) or two?

Do you mean from a real world perspective, or an in-universe perspective?

From the real world perspective, the groovy '60s alone were responsible for any number of off-kilter warped things... no pun intended, probably... But I do love the iconic color schemes used...

 

[Mytran]

It's the same engine room, it's just that it was a TV show with only a couple of corridor sets and they had to fake it. It's an overreaction to posit a second identical engine room just because a TV show was unable to create a perfect illusion. They couldn't afford to build both a set of curved corridors for the saucer and a set of straight corridors for the secondary hull, so they built one curved and a couple straight and hoped we wouldn't pay close enough attention to notice when it didn't fit. After all, we're supposed to be paying attention to the plot and dialogue and peformances and drama.

Really, if you think about it, that one corridor set can't always be taken literally even as a saucer corridor, because different concentric corridors in the saucer would have different curvatures. The fact that it only has one curvature means that it can only be an approximation of whatever corridor it's supposed to represent.

Except that there were two engine rooms (more, if you include TAS!) because the set underwent a major overhaul in between the first and second season (the shape, height, levels, length and consoles all changed). There's simply no way they can be the same space on the ship.
Also, when shot from 3 out the 4 directions at the corridor junction outside the Engine Room, the long curved corridor is obscured and consequently depicts a much smaller area (indicative of the Engineering Hull).

As for the curvature of the corridor being taken literally, there's pretty much enough decks in the saucer to accommodate all those onscreen, should anyone wish to interpret the episodes in such a literal fashion.
And yes, that would be me

 

[CorporalCaptain]

and is the dome one deck (bridge only) or two?

Good question.

It's obvious that they tried within their limitations of budget, time, etc. to make a decent shot, but it doesn't line up perfectly, and it's not possible to draw literal conclusions from what's on screen.

 

[Christopher]

Except that there were two engine rooms (more, if you include TAS!) because the set underwent a major overhaul in between the first and second season (the shape, height, levels, length and consoles all changed). There's simply no way they can be the same space on the ship.

You might as well say that there's simply no way first-season Worf and second-season Worf can be the same character because they have completely different foreheads. Or that there's simply no way TWOK Saavik and TSFS Saavik can be the same character because they're played by different actresses. It's fiction. They refine things as they go and expect the audience to understand that fiction has the prerogative to make tweaks and improvements while pretending they've been that way all along. After all, the whole thing is just pretend to begin with. This is just one more thing to suspend disbelief about.

Not to mention other set inconsistencies, like the TOS shuttlecraft interior having a higher ceiling than the exterior, or the Delta Flyer being bigger on the inside and fitting in Voyager's hangar bay even though it's too big to get through the doors, or the TMP rec room fitting in the saucer even though the undercut makes it impossible. There's a long history of Trek sets not making perfect physical sense.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Except that there were two engine rooms (more, if you include TAS!) because the set underwent a major overhaul in between the first and second season (the shape, height, levels, length and consoles all changed). There's simply no way they can be the same space on the ship.

Why not? They were the same space on the sets.