Why was Kes written off the show?

[sonak]

Ick. This is why I don't go out of my way to find out about the personal lives of actors.

I just heard on a podcast that Kira and Bashir had a child in real life. So, yeah, I'm not up to date on this stuff.

you don't have to be. The actors aren't the characters.

First of all, in that episode Fascination where Lwaxanna is broadcasting Lust at everyone and they all turn into sexahollics... Kira and Bashir were ALL OVER EACH OTHER... I mean sure they were acting, but if they didn't do that for fun after ahours anyway, the level of physicality they exherted on the set that day would make the worlds top pornstars blush and need to steady themselves against the furniture.

Second, O'Brien's baby inside Kira was really Sigid's baby inside Nana. I loved watching peopeles heads explode while explaining that one away...

sure, but the episodes still work on their own. You can watch them without the behind the scenes stuff.(I didn't know about Siddig and Visitor until long after seeing those episodes, for example)

 

[exodus]

^^
They gave us a reason, yes. But the "reason" they gave us was not convincing at all.

Considering in the past you've compared Berman & Braga to Hitler(someone that organized mass genocide) just because they fired one actress. I don't believe there is ANY statement false or factual that could convince someone that would take the issue to such extremes.

 

[DeepSpaceWine]

Well, Jeri Ryan may not have made late Voyager/Enterprise Braga-less, but at least she played a part in helping take down an opponent to a certain State Senator running for the US Senate in 2004. It was her character that made it an issue, and it became an issue of her ex-husband's character. He still probably would have won because the guy had other issues (Ryan had become a dirty name in the state simply through there being a swarm of unrelated Ryans in the Republican party at the time and the other Ryans having issues/flaws of their own) and because of the composition of the state's politics, but instead, he was forced out and a carpetbagging lunatic was put up and promptly steamrolled 3:1. And for that I'm grateful. Since her husband left that race, there hasn't been a Ryan in state politics. That US Senate race?- Barack Obama vs. Jack Ryan (the carpetbagger invited in was Alan Keyes). Obama won in a landslide, 73~75% or so. If it was Obama vs. Ryan, it would've been closer, probably 55~56 down to 50% or so.

The other Ryans?- Governor George Ryan, currently behind bars for massive corruption that led to the deaths of at least 5 children and the worst pileup in California in one year (his corruption made roads dangerous throughout the country for about 11 years. I don't think anyone has tried to quantify all the accidents caused by his drivers) and Jim Ryan, a guy who looked like Lex Luthor who was perpetually angry who was running to succeed George Ryan. He seemed stuck permanently in a Banner-Hulk transformation state, only without the glowing eyes, muscles, or green paint. He was some kind of prosecutor holding a political office. He looked like he could go postal at almost any moment. That scared a lot of people off from potentially voting for him and he was running when people wanted change and he represented more of the same and "another Ryan" on top of it.

 

[Lynx]

^^
They gave us a reason, yes. But the "reason" they gave us was not convincing at all.

Considering in the past you've compared Berman & Braga to Hitler(someone that organized mass genocide) just because they fired one actress. I don't believe there is ANY statement false or factual that could convince someone that would take the issue to such extremes.

A bit exaggerated actually. I did compare them with dictators in general and the attitude of dictators, not accusing them of genocide.

And talking about past sins, well I think we have a lot in common there. So I think it would be best if none of us opened that can of worms.

And back to topic, I don't find their statement convincing for many reasons.

If an actor leaves a certain show voluntarily, there are always a very straightforward statement from both parts. Such as: "Actor XXX is going to leave the show because he/she want to spend more time with his/her family who have been a bit neglected the last 4 years and he/she will also fulfil a longtime dream to start an ostrich farm in Arkansas. So we wish Actor XXX all luck in the future and thanks for all years go good work".

Then Actor XXX shows up in some interview where he/she talks about why he/she left a successful show, maybe there's a picture with he/she and the family at the ostrich farm in some magazine". That happened when Richard Dean Anderson left Stargate SG1 and when the actress who played Caitlin Todd in NCIS left.

When there is foul play involved, like in the Lien case and the Gates McFadden case, there are always that crap about "the character wasn't working" or "mutual agreement" (words that really makes me cringe).

In the Lien case they started up with "she left of her own will", then when it was obvious to all and everyone that she didn't leave of her own will, then they started with their excuses about "the character wasn't working" and "we couldn't come up with good stories about her" which looks a bit strange since they didn't have any problems with coming up with stories for three years.

They would have told it as it was: "We fired Lien and annihilated the character because we had to add a sexy babe" to the show in an attempt to boost the ratings", not tried to sugarcoat things with tales about "mutual agreement and problems to write for the character.

And no, I haven't forgotten "Fury" either. If the events in season 2 could be described as a stupid mistake and a foolish act, then "Fury" was a deliberate insult to a group of fans. A "dictatorial" act to say the least, against fans who wanted a character back.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Do TPTB have to pay out redundancy, unemployment, parachute, buy out their contract, whatever... Depending on "how" the talent is fired"?

It can't just be about PR?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I'm curious Lynx--do you think there is ever a case of a "character not working" or a "character being difficult to write for"?

 

[Lynx]

I'm curious Lynx--do you think there is ever a case of a "character not working" or a "character being difficult to write for"?

"Character difficult to write for", yes.

"Character not working", no that's up to the writers.

Since I've been dabbling with fan-fiction myself, I do know that some characters can be more difficult to write for than others. But in that case, I try to go round the problems by slightly changing what's difficult to write for with the character or concentrate on areas where the character definitely is working.

If I might present two examples: B'Elanna Torres is a brilliant engineer and a splendid character when it comes to fixing technical problems. Since the technical side of SF isn't my strongest side, it can be difficult to come up with plausible and realistic scenarios where B'Elanna can save the day for the crew. So when it comes to B'Elanna, I concentrate on the more action character side of her.

When it comes to Kim, he's best as the side-kick for Paris or in some away mission with Chakotay, Tuvok or Paris where he can contribute. So that's where I put him.

Note also that while I'm an amateur when it comes to such things, then I expect more from professional writes.

Not to mention that if I told my boss at work that I simply can't come up with something to something I'm supposed to do, then he would say something like "I see the problem but XX can help you out with this" or if he's having a bad day, he might tell me to pack my bags.

 

[BrownShatner]

I agree it was a huge mistake to fire Lien just because she was a woman and Jeri Ryan was hired. I mean, just look at the male characters:

Chakotay (buried in his footlocker)
Tuvok (only every seven years)
Kim (hadn't dropped yet)
Paris (word on the street: tiny)
EMH (computer generated)
Neelix (eww yuk)

Clearly this was the one big opportunity to make the definitive All Girl science fiction show. TPTB should present themselves at the nearest convention and lash their bodies for missing the obvious opportunity. After all, the ratings could have only gone up. (Especially after the Starfleet miniskirt directive was transmitted in.)

 

[You_Will_Fail]

I think that with some effort, most characters can be made to work. And with the case of Kes who was so full of potential (as Kenneth Biller pointed out), its just shoddy to give up then say "oh she wasn't working". More like you couldn't be bothered.

Also, I've already pointed out that in the Biller interview, he said that the real pressure to get rid of Lien was coming from the studio and not the writers. If the writing room was up in arms over how difficult Kes was to write for, I think he would have said that in in the interview and not "she was an interesting character full of possibilities" and "the real pressure to drop Kes came from the studio". Clearly the main reason to get rid of Kes was because she wasn't testing very well with audiences at that point.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Clearly this was the one big opportunity to make the definitive All Girl science fiction show.

You mean it isn't?

Oh right..

 

[Guy Gardener]

What about Cleopatra 2525?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0206476/

Three female leads, and a fourth disemboded female computer voice butler.

There was a male robot they had sex with now and then, when he wasn't programmed to be evil and kill them all.

It was made by the less famous people behind Hercules and Xena.

 

[DeepSpaceWine]

What about Cleopatra 2525?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0206476/

Three female leads, and a fourth disemboded female computer voice butler.

There was a male robot they had sex with now and then, when he wasn't programmed to be evil and kill them all.

It was made by the less famous people behind Hercules and Xena.

Horrid show from the makers of Hercules and Xena. Jennifer Sky was easy on the eyes though. Even that couldn't keep me watching past the first few episodes. It's too bad they chose to make the show and let Xena: Pregnant Princess act heavily in that half of the season (most of those episodes are ranked among the worst in the series by Xena fans and many of those were written by the same duo that went on to write Star Trek & Transformers. They also wrote many of the worst eps of Hercules). Should've kept Sky as Amarice and have her take Xena's share of the fighting burden with Gabrielle.
(Amarice appeared in late Season 4/early Season 5 and was written out to become the lead in 2525. It was clear at the time she was in the same mold as Joxer, Iolaus, a major companion to Xena or Herc. It seemed like that's why she was there)

 

[exodus]

If I might present two examples: B'Elanna Torres is a brilliant engineer and a splendid character when it comes to fixing technical problems. Since the technical side of SF isn't my strongest side, it can be difficult to come up with plausible and realistic scenarios where B'Elanna can save the day for the crew. So when it comes to B'Elanna, I concentrate on the more action character side of her.

You've just proven why Kes was written into as corner.
You had a character that's a brilliant Engineer and you have no creative way to develop that aspect of the character, so you ignore it. Just like they did with Kes' aging & mental powers. The two aspects that made her standout among everyone else. Without them, Kes' develpoment doesn't become anymore exciting that Harry's.

 

[Lynx]

If I might present two examples: B'Elanna Torres is a brilliant engineer and a splendid character when it comes to fixing technical problems. Since the technical side of SF isn't my strongest side, it can be difficult to come up with plausible and realistic scenarios where B'Elanna can save the day for the crew. So when it comes to B'Elanna, I concentrate on the more action character side of her.

You've just proven why Kes was written into as corner.
You had a character that's a brilliant Engineer and you have no creative way to develop that aspect of the character, so you ignore it. Just like they did with Kes' aging & mental powers. The two aspects that made her standout among everyone else. Without them, Kes' develpoment doesn't become anymore exciting that Harry's.

What about her personality? That was what really made the character. Her curiosity, will to explore and take risks to do that plus her ability to move around obstacles and problems and attack them from another angle. Not to mention that her mental abilities as they were in "Persistence Of Vision" and "Cold Fire" could be used in many situations.

Taking my examples as "evidence" that Kes was written into a corner is also a bit exaggerated, I mean they are professional writers, they should do better than I could. Not to mention that they were a staff of writers. If one of them had problems with one character, then there must have been others who could give a helping hand. I also have to state that if I had been one of those writers and was paid to come up with stories about those great characters, then I would have done that, even when it comes to the problems I mentioned about my capability to come up with ideas for Torres and Kim.

I would also like to point out that during the three years Kes was in the series, they did manage to come up with more and better Kes stories and plots than they did for Kim for seven years.

And I'm still confused how all of them suddenly lost their abilities to write for the character. Must have been some decease, maybe the "Taylor flu".

And remember: "Character wasn't working"+"Mutual agreement"=Foul play.

 

[doubleohfive]

Christ, who do I have to blow to get off this newsfeed?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Your own fingers?

 

[Sandoval]

Christ, who do I have to blow to get off this newsfeed?

Me.

 

[DeepSpaceWine]

You've just proven why Kes was written into as corner.

Nobody writes Kes into a corner!

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Christ, who do I have to blow to get off this newsfeed?

Me.

The desperation in this thread is getting staler.

We need FRESH desperation.

WHY WAS KES MURDERED, WHY WHY WHY?! For boobs?!? Why couldn't we have traded Harry for those same boobs and then we could have curious, wide eyed Kes AND boobs!! Taylor's lies poisoned Voyager and they must be EXPOSED.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Harry and Tom were a fine set of exposed boobs.

Apotheosis is not not murder.

Then, the powers that be promote lots of people into meaningless figure head positions to keep them from selling off the homeworld.