Why was it necesarry to prove Data's sentience?

[Use of Time]

My point on Data's role in Starfleet is this: if the issue is his right to resign, then we would need to look at the definition in the Starfleet regulations of "member of Starfleet". If there isn't one that includes a line "must be sentient being", then sentience is not an issue, because the prima facie indicia are all in place -- Academy attendance, length and continuity of service, rank, promotion ... The argument would be that Starfleet cannot have it both ways -- use him like a member, and then claim he isn't one.

I really don't see how that's a flaw in how the Starfleet judicial system is depicted, though. Plenty of institutions have engaged in hypocritical behavior when it comes to sometimes respecting and sometimes denying basic rights to people. Just look at the hypocrisy involved in saying that two gays can't marry but can make other legal arrangements for one-another, or (back in the day) that we were fighting Communism for democracy when blacks couldn't even vote.

As for the lack of delaying motions -- I think it's fair to say that that's a bit unrealistic, but I think you're running up against the fundamental creative conceits of late 1980s U.S. one-hour dramatic television. The episode wanted to be about the issues, not about the legal procedures, and it was written years before the emergence of serialization yielded long-term, multi-episode arcs on U.S. TV. "The Measure of a Man" was written in an era where, aside from two-parters, the central conflict had to be resolved within the episode. So while it's not strictly realistic, I think that's an Acceptable Break from Reality.

When I say more formal I'm essentially talking about giving Data an actual defense attorney and not have his prosecutor be his first officer. Not to mention that the judge seems to have a contraversial history with his "lawyer" so to speak. This whole thing screams inappropriate to me.

As Christopher has demonstrated, this is simply a facet of the fact that it's a military court, not a civilian court. That which is "inappropriate" in a civilian context is not automatically so in a military context, and that doesn't make it any less "formal."

Edited: And yeah let's take that line that Star just brought up when she says "Data is a toaster."

If I were Data I would be doing everything in my power to get this thing to Earth somehow.

Here is something else I would do If I were Data. I would try to write my "congressman" so to speak and get the story out to the public.

That brings up an interesting question -- of which Federation Member is Data legally a resident? We know that Omicron Theta was considered an "Earth colony" -- presumably that means that Omicron Theta was considered part of United Earth's territory within the Federation, in the same way that Long Island is considered part of the State of New York's territory within the United States. So I'm guessing that Data would be represented on the Federation Council by the Federation Councillor from United Earth. (I have no idea who his United Earth MP would be, though -- assuming that the Parliament of United Earth uses single- or multi-member districts for each MP, that is, rather than electing all MPs on a U.E. "at-large" basis.)

But, that brings up another question:

Has Data ever pursued legal recognition as a United Earth and/or Federation citizen? Has he ever registered to vote? Has he ever applied for or received a Federation passport? If Data has never pursued legal recognition as a citizen from the Federation and United Earth governments, his case may hit another stumbling block.

(I would think that even if Data had not pursued overt recognition of Federation citizenship, though, that would still be his strongest recourse. It seems improbable that Data was issued a "Federation green card" upon being brought to Federation core territory by the U.S.S. Tripoli, so even if he was never issued a United Earth "birth certificate" or equivalent, or was never given a Federation passport or registered to vote, the lack of a "green card" equivalent would, I would argue, constitute an implicit if not overt acknowledgement of Federation citizenship.)

I'll buy into your premise about military court as I spent most of my career in the military but those courts aren't all that different to be honest. There is the UCMJ thrown into the mix. The context in which this hearing took place is odd. Having your CO and XO square off over your Humanoid rights is ridiculous in any court.

 

[Snaploud]

(If you're interested, have a look at how I deal with Starfleet Bureaucracy, and the Maquis question, on Voyager's return; the story is called "Choices" and you can find it at http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6741063/1/Choices)

Thanks for the link. I don't normally read fan fiction, but I added your story to my kindle for later reading. It sounds interesting.

 

[Cap-Pick-Card]

It's important to prove Data's sentience because even Picard is an activist for the emotionally-challenged.

 

[Cap-Pick-Card]

It's important to prove Data's sentience because even Picard is an activist for the emotionally-challenged.

No more activist captain lawyers!

 

[Trekker4747]

(What surprises me is that they even know what toasters are in the 24th century. Wouldn't they just get toast from a replicator?)

But food replicators are a fairly recent invention -- so far as we know, they didn't even exist as late as 2293. So they're no more than seventy-one years old as of TNG Season One.

And plenty of episodes have made it clear that replicators are not universally used and universally enjoyed. Plenty of people find replicated food inferior to organic food -- hence the Picard family refusing to purchase a replicator in the mid-24th Century, and hence the continued popularity of restaurants like Sisko's Creole Restaurant in New Orleans.

So I don't think it's at all implausible that they'd still have toasters in 2365.

Well, the "food processors" in TOS were basic, simple, "replicators" as were the "food processors" in ENT. Replicators were just vastly more complex and produced a better product than the "food processors" of centuries past.

There is an "oddity" with the replicators, though. In "Encounter at Farpoint" Riker expresses some amazement that the jellyfish aliens are able to "convert energy to matter" when this is a basic concept many aspects of their entire society is based on. Transporters do that (it's half of the transporting process) and their replicators are able to do it.

(Though he may have meant the jellyfish aliens are able to do it "naturally" which still shouldn't be too amazing. Hell, our bodies alone do it by converting sunlight into vitamin D. Not as impressive as turning energy into a bowl full of apples but, still...)

But I sort of doubt toasters are commonly used in the 24c especially for Starfleet officers who spend most of their time on starbases, starships and alien worlds where fresh-cooked food isn't too common or plentiful. Also, since technology in the 24c isn't based on electricity or solid-state electronics I doubt they have these contraptions in their kitchens that take 120v of electricity and use it to create a controlled and modified short in order to heat-up a thin wire that'll produce high enough heat to scorch the starch molecules in bread.

I would think they'd have something a bit more elegant.

Whether such device would still be called a "toaster" is unknown. Though maybe it is called a "toaster" but it's like Geordi's VISOR and it's an acronym for "Thermal Omni-Angular Starch Tempering and Energizing Receptacle."

 

[Alpha Flyer]

Would anyone who doubts the existence of 24th century toasters kindly recall Kathryn Janeway referring to her replicator as a "glorified toaster" when it wrecks her dinner and Tom Paris making -- yes -- toast in a retro toaster in "Lineage". He doesn't call it a toaster, but that's exactly what it is, right down to the streamlined form and the slots for the bread, and he definitely refers to the end product as "toast".

Elementary, my dear Data... Case closed.

 

[Trekker4747]

Objection!

Voyager was stupid and didn't know what it was doing/talking about half of time, was barely internally consistent let alone consistent with the rest of the franchise and, well, "Measure of a Man" came first so it's what we must judge these trivial details on and not stuff that came later from a source that couldn't even keep track with how many damn shuttles it had.

 

[Alpha Flyer]

Canon is canon, I thought. And consistency? Anywhere? Please. But I guess I've just been told and will quickly, much chastened, run back to the Voyager forum where I secretly belong.

Or maybe, since this is not the first time I've encountered this kind of snarky response on BBS in what I thought was an enjoyable discussion, I'll just forget the entire thing and stick to writing. Life is too short.

(BTW the show actually shows them BUILDING one shuttle, and REPLACING one that was lost. Stands to reason that's what they did, out there, with all that rationed energy for the replicators. Oh well.)

in the meantime, consider me unsubscribed to this thread.

 

[Sci]

(What surprises me is that they even know what toasters are in the 24th century. Wouldn't they just get toast from a replicator?)

But food replicators are a fairly recent invention -- so far as we know, they didn't even exist as late as 2293. So they're no more than seventy-one years old as of TNG Season One.

And plenty of episodes have made it clear that replicators are not universally used and universally enjoyed. Plenty of people find replicated food inferior to organic food -- hence the Picard family refusing to purchase a replicator in the mid-24th Century, and hence the continued popularity of restaurants like Sisko's Creole Restaurant in New Orleans.

So I don't think it's at all implausible that they'd still have toasters in 2365.

Well, the "food processors" in TOS were basic, simple, "replicators"

I doubt the tribbles could have gotten into the food processors if they were replicators. The food processors in TOS obviously worked by delivering pre-stored foodstuffs, not literally conjuring food out of thin air.

But I sort of doubt toasters are commonly used in the 24c

Why? That seems like an arbitrary futurism to me. People like bread; people like toasted bread. It stands to reason there will always be a cooking device to create toast from bread. Whether it works in the exact same way as a modern toaster seems irrelevant to me. A flatscreen HD TV doesn't work like the devices used to receive episodes of Your Show of Shows in the 1950s, but they're still called TVs.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

People like bread; people like toasted bread. It stands to reason there will always be a cooking device to create toast from bread. Whether it works in the exact same way as a modern toaster seems irrelevant to me.

So given that Data is sentient...

...and that sentience is required for admission into Starfleet Academy...

Would you like a toasted tea cake?

 

[The Borg Queen]

Whatever happened to Harry Mudd's Android-vending machine? Didn't Starfleet study it's schematics at any point? Also, why couldn't they have just used Data's transporter pattern to study his positronic brain?

 

[BillJ]

Or maybe, since this is not the first time I've encountered this kind of snarky response on BBS in what I thought was an enjoyable discussion, I'll just forget the entire thing and stick to writing. Life is too short.

You're taking the discussion a bit too seriously. We all rag on each others favorite versions of Trek. It's a time honored tradition here.

 

[Christopher]

Whatever happened to Harry Mudd's Android-vending machine? Didn't Starfleet study it's schematics at any point?

As I remarked above, the Mudd androids were pretty primitive on a mental level. They only had a single brain among the lot of them, literally, and it was so crude it could barely cope with a minor programming conflict without freezing or crashing.

Also, why couldn't they have just used Data's transporter pattern to study his positronic brain?

Same reason they don't use transporter patterns to clone people. It's hard to store a pattern with sufficient quantum-level resolution.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

Or maybe, since this is not the first time I've encountered this kind of snarky response on BBS in what I thought was an enjoyable discussion, I'll just forget the entire thing and stick to writing. Life is too short.

You're taking the discussion a bit too seriously. We all rag on each others favorite versions of Trek. It's a time honored tradition here.

[Mod voice] Agree with BillJ. Reasonable partisanship is to be expected and tolerated. As much of a Troll hunter as I am, one can't be overly sensitive. [/Mod voice]

 

[BillJ]

Same reason they don't use transporter patterns to clone people. It's hard to store a pattern with sufficient quantum-level resolution.

But didn't they do exactly that in Lonely Among Us?

 

[Timo]

DS9 "Rivals" makes it look as if copying of objects down to the finest detail is trivially easy. Understanding what is being copied is hard.

But as per "Rivals", Quark could lure Data into one of his replicators, create fifty fully accurate copies of him, and have Maddox dig into as many of them as it took to understand what makes Data tick. The original would remain unharmed, but the secrets would be uncovered.

The transporter is never indicated to be a particularly good scanning device. It just moves stuff from A to B, sometimes noticing something amiss with the stuff being transported (disease or weapon signatures), and sometimes allowing the operator to do something about them (erase, turn off, put on hold). But it's always hit and miss there. In contrast, replicators apparently can take A and turn it into A and A. Or into A and A and A and A and... Or, as in "Rivals", A and another A that happens to be a hundred times bigger but still works exactly the same. They don't have to understand what they are copying.

Unless we assume that only Ferengi/Cardassian replicators are that good...

...Or that the object being replicated in "Rivals" was not a particularly demanding target after all. It need not have contained really small and intricate components or exotic materials in order to function - just an operating principle our heroes couldn't comprehend. A coarse, classroom-demo semiconductor transistor is something you would necessarily get right if you copied it in a machine that can make an edible and good-looking copy of a wedding cake... It suffices to get the chemistry of the components right, and to get the texture right down to about millimeter resolution. And we have every reason to suspect replicators do much better than that, and no solid reason to require the probability-twisting spheres of "Rivals" to be more demanding targets.

(Or then the spheres just twisted probability so that the replication was a success against all odds.)

..and that sentience is required for admission into Starfleet Academy...

I find it rather difficult to believe that the text "sentience is required" would be found anywhere in the SF Academy documentation. I mean, what would be the incentive of putting that in there? The Academy doesn't want sentients, as it has no desire to settle for mere sentients - it wants people who can pass the tests. If that happens to qualify them as sentients on the side, it's something that won't be specifically mentioned anywhere.

Besides, haven't we already agreed that the title of this thread misses the point? Nowhere in "Measure of a Man" was Data required to have sentience. Its presence or absence in him was briefly brought up during the trial but did not solve anything, not regarding his rights, not regarding his legal status...

What Picard said was that sentience would give Data the rights "every lifeform in the UFP" is entitled to. Which makes no sense, as Data would have little use for the rights a mollusk is entitled to. If Picard means Data would get the rights of every sentient lifeform in the UFP, he's just drawing meaningless circles. Or does "lifeform in the UFP" perhaps mean "lifeforms that are listed as UFP members"...?

Anyway, Maddox had originally argued that Data should not be allowed into Starfleet because he was not sentient. However, nowhere was it established that Data's admission included declaring him sentient. Maddox was voted down, but we never learned on what grounds. Perhaps the SF Academy panel decided lack of sentience did not matter? That's how they should have decided, because the trial demonstrates that the 24th century lacks a working definition of sentience.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Alpha Flyer]

Came back to have a look to see whether my comments had a response. Guess they did.

Or maybe, since this is not the first time I've encountered this kind of snarky response on BBS in what I thought was an enjoyable discussion, I'll just forget the entire thing and stick to writing. Life is too short.

You're taking the discussion a bit too seriously. We all rag on each others favorite versions of Trek. It's a time honored tradition here.

Thanks, and also to Mutai Sho-Rin. And I mean it -- THANKS. No irony.

That said, I don't think I'm taking the discussion particularly seriously (I mean, this is about Star Trek, not about some of the seriously nasty things I deal with in RL). What my comment was meant to convey -- and maybe I wasn't too specific, mea culpa -- is that when people reply to a factual response with what amounts to an insult, I lose interest in the discussion. In this instance, the question was "are there toasters in the ST 24th century", and yeah, there's evidence of them, on the screen, in two episodes. (Canon, right?) The response was "that was a stupid show".

I fully understand the concept of ST partisanship (hey, guilty as charged when it comes to certain characters -- ask me my opinion of Chakotay sometime). I'm just not so keen on discussions where, in essence, facts don't count if someone doesn't like them, or where they originate. I get that attitude enough when dealing with certain foreign governments, don't really need it when I'm having fun, so I pack my toys and go home. Guess that's all I was trying to say.

 

[LtGarak]

Lal has been brought up.
So, what about Lore? He's pretty close to Data and has a positronic brain. If androids are important, would Maddox not want whatever he could use from Lore after Data disassembled him? What's the canon answer to what happened after Descent to Lore's remains? I know from books and graphic novels I think B4's becoming Data, and Lore's brain was destroyed in a crash, but I don't even know the specifics about these, just seen these ideas mentioned on the internet. It's the same case with Lal's body. Is there a Warehouse 13 associated with the Daystrom Institute, where all the inconvenient technology goes?

 

[Christopher]

What's the canon answer to what happened after Descent to Lore's remains?

Only silence. Canon says nothing about Lore after "Descent."

I know from books and graphic novels I think B4's becoming Data...

That's only happened in one tie-in comic and in the Star Trek Online computer game. The novels are a separate continuity, and that hasn't happened there.

, and Lore's brain was destroyed in a crash, but I don't even know the specifics about these, just seen these ideas mentioned on the internet.

The novel Immortal Coil by Jeffrey Lang established, IIRC, that Lore's remains were destroyed when the Enterprise-D crashed in Generations.

 

[Agent Richard07]

I also recall that Bashir installed a positronic brain, or at least part of one, in Vedek Bareil. So

IIRC he implanted part of a brain into him and then later another part, at the end effectively giving him a full poistronic brain.

Only part of his brain was replaced. Bashir decided not to replace the rest because he thought that doing so would be going too far.