Why TOS started so good?

[Ssosmcin]

I was at a friend's house a few weeks ago and my wife and I were getting ready to leave. Their TV was on and Me-TV was showing "The Trouble With Tribbles.' This friend, who is roughly my age - she's about 45ish - stopped saying goodbye to us to ask me a question about how the tribbles moved when they approached Klingons. "Honestly," I said, "I'm not 100%. Looks like a mechanism or--" and she interrupted to blurt out, "is Shatner just twitching them with his hand?" "Uh, maybe, I guess that's a possibility." She laughed - I mean really hard - and said, "this show was so poorly made!"

This is kind of what I see sometimes and it's annoying, really. I mean, Jesus H. Peterson, it's a 50 year old show and even with the (not cheap) budgets, the technology, not to mention time, just wasn't there to do what can be done today. What astonishes me is that this wasn't some kid spoiled by CGI. She's an intelligent science whiz who is only a few years younger than I am. I just don't get how people cannot, or refuse to, see shows and movies in the context of the times they were made. So, no, the sets won't be up to modern standards, the composite model shots won't be without heavy grain, bleed or garbage mattes, and the costumes and performances will be indicative of the styles of the day.

Star Trek wasn't cheap, it wasn't poorly made (for the most part), and it wasn't camp (for the most part). It was made 50 years ago. And it holds up a hell of a lot better than a lot of other TV of the day.

Why King Kong gets a pass and Star Trek doesn't remains a mystery.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

^ You mean it wasn't camp.

 

[Ssosmcin]

^ You mean it wasn't camp.

D'OH!

Fixed, thanks, Zap!

 

[Noname Given]

^ You mean it wasn't camp.

To be fair, it wasn't cheap either - it had the highest per episode budget of any TV science fiction show to date. Space 1999 had about the same budget 5 years later; and they were both beaten only by Battlestar Galactica in 1978.

 

[Vandervecken]

Sometimes the effects/models they came up with were, IMO, "lightning in a bottle." The original Tholian ships are WONDERFUL ultra-alien glowing gem-things--the CBS remastered models are stupid boring humdrum anyships. The original Doomsday Machine's energy cascade inside its maw is perfect---a kaleidoscope of exotic energies, while, again, the CBS remastered effect is a boring red furnace.

 

[BlueshirtGuard]

I absolutely reject the idea that the series had a substantial decline. And, based on your summary of "Kirk gets captured and screws a girl every week," I question whether you're even watching the series.

Kirk and spock and sometimes mccoy get captured in
Wink of an eye
the empath
Whom Gods Destroy
The Mark of Gideon
requiem for methuselah
The Cloud Minders
Platos stepchildren
For the world is hollow and I have touched the sky (briefly)
Spectre of the Gun (scotty and chekov join them)
Turnabout intruder

that's a pretty good chunk of the season.

 

[Vger23]

Kirk and spock and sometimes mccoy get captured in
Wink of an eye
the empath
Whom Gods Destroy
The Mark of Gideon
requiem for methuselah
The Cloud Minders
Platos stepchildren
For the world is hollow and I have touched the sky (briefly)
Spectre of the Gun (scotty and chekov join them)
Turnabout intruder

that's a pretty good chunk of the season.

You have a rather broad definition of "gets captured" based on this list, and you failed to address the fact that in only one of these instances does Kirk "screw a girl." And the number of episodes you listed is not "every week".

And certainly, I could argue that the "main characters get captured every week and Kirk screws a girl" (at least based on your broad interpretation) is a staple of Season 2 as well, except I could also add (again, if I were prone to broad generalizations and hyperbole) that S2 is also prone to yet another Trek trope, which is "Enterprise visits a parallel Earth-type world every week."

Soooooo....yeah. Your argument is weak. Sorry.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And in Season One Kirk and others are captured in:
What Are Little Girls Made Of
Dagger of the Mind
Miri
The Squire of Gothos
Arena
Tomorrow Is Yesterday
Return of the Archons
A Taste of Armageddon
Space Seed
Errand of Mercy

and in Season Two
Who Mourns For Adonais
The Apple
Catspaw
I, Mudd
Friday's Child
Gamesters od Triskelion
A Piece of the Action
Patterns of Force
By Any Other Name
Omega Glory
Bread and Circuses



Getting captured is a common plot element through out the series

 

[Vger23]

I was at a friend's house a few weeks ago and my wife and I were getting ready to leave. Their TV was on and Me-TV was showing "The Trouble With Tribbles.' This friend, who is roughly my age - she's about 45ish - stopped saying goodbye to us to ask me a question about how the tribbles moved when they approached Klingons. "Honestly," I said, "I'm not 100%. Looks like a mechanism or--" and she interrupted to blurt out, "is Shatner just twitching them with his hand?" "Uh, maybe, I guess that's a possibility." She laughed - I mean really hard - and said, "this show was so poorly made!"

This is kind of what I see sometimes and it's annoying, really. I mean, Jesus H. Peterson, it's a 50 year old show and even with the (not cheap) budgets, the technology, not to mention time, just wasn't there to do what can be done today. What astonishes me is that this wasn't some kid spoiled by CGI. She's an intelligent science whiz who is only a few years younger than I am. I just don't get how people cannot, or refuse to, see shows and movies in the context of the times they were made. So, no, the sets won't be up to modern standards, the composite model shots won't be without heavy grain, bleed or garbage mattes, and the costumes and performances will be indicative of the styles of the day.

Star Trek wasn't cheap, it wasn't poorly made (for the most part), and it wasn't camp (for the most part). It was made 50 years ago. And it holds up a hell of a lot better than a lot of other TV of the day.

Why King Kong gets a pass and Star Trek doesn't remains a mystery.

Arguably, the original series of Star Trek is the best show in the history of television. Nothing has influenced pop culture, science, or subsequent styles of entertainment the way that show did, and its 50-year legacy is unparalleled. It literally, in some ways, changed the world. I don't think we actually stop and let that fact sink in too often.

That's why I always roll my eyes at people who chuckle at their perception of its datedness or criticize one season or another (the weaker season of the best show in history is still pretty phucking good television).

 

[Ssosmcin]

Frankly, I think a good chunk of the criticism stems from a desire to bring the series down a few pegs by slapping labels like "dated," campy" and "overrated" on it. I actually have met a few people who have a very violent hatred for the series, preferring Lost In Space and The Invaders and actively go out of their way to trash Trek in order to boost their favorite shows.

Maybe it's me, but I don't have to actually like a show to respect its place in history or acknowledge its quality. For instance, I loathe I Love Lucy, but I fully respect how pivotal a series it was and the enormous quality of it. I just don't like it. Watching any episode is the longest half hour of my life.

 

[johnnybear]

Agree. Like TOS season 1, SPACE:1999 season 1 was extremely good. Unlike TOS season 2, SPACE:1999 season 2 radically altered the series with major changes in cast, Alpha Moonbase sets, uniforms, opening credits/score and storytelling style. With all of these changes, I still am grateful for the second season, although I wish they had retained the first season opening credits/score.

The new Network DVD episode of Seed of Destruction has the original first series titles as an extra on the set believe it or not! Shame they didn't do it on all 24 shows too! I think it has the same incidental music as well but then again some of year 2s music is quite good and thought provoking!
JB

 

[BlueshirtGuard]

And in Season One Kirk and others are captured in:
What Are Little Girls Made Of
Dagger of the Mind
Miri
The Squire of Gothos
Arena
Tomorrow Is Yesterday
Return of the Archons
A Taste of Armageddon
Space Seed
Errand of Mercy

and in Season Two
Who Mourns For Adonais
The Apple
Catspaw
I, Mudd
Friday's Child
Gamesters od Triskelion
A Piece of the Action
Patterns of Force
By Any Other Name
Omega Glory
Bread and Circuses



Getting captured is a common plot element through out the series

Well I agree its a common plot element but its done terribly in season three. Also I wouldn't count any of those episodes listed on season 1 except "Dagger of the mind" and "What are Little Girls made of" as capture episodes. Most of the season two ones aren't either. There's a difference between them getting captured during an episode and the whole episode about Kirk and crew being captured.

Miri - they were stuck on the planet because of a disease no one was actually captured.
The Squire of Gothos - the whole ship was in danger it wasn't just a few people being captured.
Arena - similar to Gothos the aliens set up a death match wasn't. I didn't count "the savage curtain" as a capture episode so this one should not be counted.
Tomorrow Is Yesterday - again someone is captured but it isnt the bulk of the episode. Also its not kirk I dont think (haven't seen it in a while)
Return of the Archons - They get captured but isnt all about them escaping.
A Taste of Armageddon - they are briefly captured then get out and fuck up the planet
Space Seed - whole ship is captured. If we are going to count whole ship getting captured you would have to count season 3 episodes like 'let this be your last battlefield' and 'And then the children shell lead'
Errand of Mercy - same as Archons they aren't captured the whole time.

Who Mourns For Adonais - Like Gothos whole crew was in a bind
The Apple - I don't think anyone was really captured here, if they were it was very briefly
Catspaw - Yes it was a capture episode a bad one
I, Mudd - can't remember enough about it
Friday's Child - They escape pretty early on
Gamesters od Triskelion - capture episode
A Piece of the Action - Not really everyone was captured and escaping left and right
Patterns of Force - same as a pierce of the action
By Any Other Name - more of a ship taken over episode than a capture episode, like before if I were to count these I would have to count more season 3 episodes.
Omega Glory - eh sorta a capture episode I'll give you it
Bread and Circuses- capture episode

Season 1 had 2 episodes purely about rescuing kirk. Season 3 had like 3 or 4.

Season three episodes like
Wink of an eye
the empath
Whom Gods Destroy
The Mark of Gideon
requiem for methuselah
Platos stepchildren

Are completely about people being captured with little else going on. I'll admit the cloud Minders wasn't really a captured episode. You have episodes like the empath just about our heroes being tortured for no reason. Same with Platos stepchild. If you count enterprise taken over episodes the list is much higher in season 3 but those episodes were done much much worse than in season 1 and 2.

 

[Vger23]

Well I agree its a common plot element but its done terribly in season three. Also I wouldn't count any of those episodes listed on season 1 except "Dagger of the mind" and "What are Little Girls made of" as capture episodes. Most of the season two ones aren't either. There's a difference between them getting captured during an episode and the whole episode about Kirk and crew being captured.

Miri - they were stuck on the planet because of a disease no one was actually captured.
The Squire of Gothos - the whole ship was in danger it wasn't just a few people being captured.
Arena - similar to Gothos the aliens set up a death match wasn't. I didn't count "the savage curtain" as a capture episode so this one should not be counted.
Tomorrow Is Yesterday - again someone is captured but it isnt the bulk of the episode. Also its not kirk I dont think (haven't seen it in a while)
Return of the Archons - They get captured but isnt all about them escaping.
A Taste of Armageddon - they are briefly captured then get out and fuck up the planet
Space Seed - whole ship is captured. If we are going to count whole ship getting captured you would have to count season 3 episodes like 'let this be your last battlefield' and 'And then the children shell lead'
Errand of Mercy - same as Archons they aren't captured the whole time.

Who Mourns For Adonais - Like Gothos whole crew was in a bind
The Apple - I don't think anyone was really captured here, if they were it was very briefly
Catspaw - Yes it was a capture episode a bad one
I, Mudd - can't remember enough about it
Friday's Child - They escape pretty early on
Gamesters od Triskelion - capture episode
A Piece of the Action - Not really everyone was captured and escaping left and right
Patterns of Force - same as a pierce of the action
By Any Other Name - more of a ship taken over episode than a capture episode, like before if I were to count these I would have to count more season 3 episodes.
Omega Glory - eh sorta a capture episode I'll give you it
Bread and Circuses- capture episode

Season 1 had 2 episodes purely about rescuing kirk. Season 3 had like 3 or 4.

Season three episodes like
Wink of an eye
the empath
Whom Gods Destroy
The Mark of Gideon
requiem for methuselah
Platos stepchildren

Are completely about people being captured with little else going on. I'll admit the cloud Minders wasn't really a captured episode. You have episodes like the empath just about our heroes being tortured for no reason. Same with Platos stepchild. If you count enterprise taken over episodes the list is much higher in season 3 but those episodes were done much much worse than in season 1 and 2.

Again, the fact that (this time) you say they are "tortured for no reason" really makes me question whether you actually watch these shows.

 

[Steve Gennarelli]

....The one thing I keep hearing when the original actors were being interviewed was that Gene Coon ( who came on board in the 2nd half of Season one....left the show late in the 2nd season ...although I think he wrote a couple of scripts for year 3 under his pseudonym "Lee Cronin") was punching up and making a lot of the scripts better or for that matter completely re-writing the scripts and making them really good. Without his presence in season 3 or a suitable replacement for him, the shows really suffered.
I also agree with the prior sentiments about the lack of budgeting. Seasons 1 and 2 had many exciting "on location" shows like...well like the best episodes of the series "Arena", "Shore Leave", "City on the Edge...", "Errand of Mercy", "Piece of the Action"...most of them with the exception of "Tribbles" and "Mirror, Mirror" were done with some outdoor shoots of some kind or actually going on location somewhere. For poor season 3, only "The Paradise Syndrome" was filmed off the lot. Everything else has that cheesy "The Man Trap" look from way back in Season One. Had the writing been up to snuff, sure maybe we could have forgiven them for lack of budget...but for the most part with only a handful of exceptions....Season 3 was very forgettable. But Season 3 did play a major role in giving them enough episodes to get the darn show syndicated to begin with...even though Season 3 sure watered down the quality of the existing product.

 

[plynch]

And yet it returns to more hard sci-fi, ditches the comedy and arguably is more daring artistically or weird (Spectre, Empath, Zetar) than Trek had been since early S1. I too get tired of the indoor-exteriors look.

 

[Harvey]

Arguably, the original series of Star Trek is the best show in the history of television. Nothing has influenced pop culture, science, or subsequent styles of entertainment the way that show did, and its 50-year legacy is unparalleled.

The show's long-lasting memory in American pop culture is self-evident, but in terms of influencing "subsequent styles of entertainment," there are plenty of shows that have done so to a far greater extent than Star Trek.

"The best show in the history of television" is of course a subjective claim, but one that I have a hard time agreeing with, as much as I love Star Trek. Did Hill Street Blues or The Wire ever broadcast an episode as incomprehensible as "The Alternative Factor," or as stupid as "And The Children Shall Lead"?

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

The show's long-lasting memory in American pop culture is self-evident, but in terms of influencing "subsequent styles of entertainment," there are plenty of shows that have done so to a far greater extent than Star Trek.

"The best show in the history of television" is of course a subjective claim, but one that I have a hard time agreeing with, as much as I love Star Trek. Did Hill Street Blues or The Wire ever broadcast an episode as incomprehensible as "The Alternative Factor," or as stupid as "And The Children Shall Lead"?

This. So much this.

I stopped looking at Star Trek with rose-colored VISORs a long time ago. Yes, it's good. Yes it's better than most action-adventure shows of the time. And it had some damn fine episodes. But Rod Serling said it best about the show:

Star Trek was again a very inconsistent show which at times sparkled with true ingenuity and pure science fiction approaches. At other times it was more carnival-like, and very much more the creature of television than the creature of a legitimate literary form.

 

[Warped9]

There can often be a tendency to just things from a current perspective even without realizing it. And if someone was never really interested in the TOS in the first place then that bias can be even more likely.

 

[Steve Gennarelli]

From more of a business standpoint, I'm sure TV writers wanting to sell scripts probably weren't chomping at the bit to submit for "Star Trek" when the show was renewed against NBC's initial wishes. Seeing that they were going to air it Friday at 10:00pm, let anyone with a brain know, that the show was a lame duck...just hanging on by a thread. Add to that Roddenberry packing his bags and leaving the studio to focus on "future endeavors"...couldn't give the sci-fi or TV writers the warm and fuzzies.
What I just said above also took a negative effect on the actors....Shatner's performance was more broad, Nimoy as Spock seemed almost depressed and De Kelley just did what he could with the material he was given. Compare that to Season 1 where you saw almost a different take on Captain Kirk in every episode. The writing was on the wall but as I said on another thread, it gave them enough episodes to syndicate the show and the greatness of Season's 1 and 2 turned a whole new generation of fans into Trekkies and it hasn't stopped since....

 

[Harvey]

From more of a business standpoint, I'm sure TV writers wanting to sell scripts probably weren't chomping at the bit to submit for "Star Trek" when the show was renewed against NBC's initial wishes.

NBC's desire to cancel the show after season two has been greatly exaggerated.

Regarding freelance TV writers - a sale was a sale. Not accounting for residuals, a writer would be paid the same fee whether or not their script was produced - as long as they advanced that far (many were cut off at the story stage, but were still paid for that work - on the original series, usually $655).