Why TOS started so good?

[UnknownSample]

I doubt it. For one thing, if all we had was a single season, it probably wouldn't have been the same success in syndication as the show ultimately was. For another, as much as the letter writing campaign has been exaggerated in size and influence, it was an important myth about Star Trek in the 70s. Without it, Star Trek fans would just be another group that wrote in to the network were ignored - their favorite one season wonder given the axe without a second thought.

I'm not sure what you thought I was saying-- maybe that ST would have been successful, and somehow just as popular. All I was saying was that it would be thought of, perhaps by a small cult following, as this very special and remarkable show that came and went. For those aware of ST, the positives would win out.

 

[UnknownSample]

Utter nonsense.

Fine, expand on that.

 

[diankra]

More generally, if there hadn't been a third season, then Trek might not have made it into syndication at all. 80 episodes was still a little short, hence the 1987 plan to add TNG to the existing package if it only ran for a single season.
But... ISTR that one syndication chain pre-bought the rights to Trek while it was still on NBC ( something similar happened to Twilight Zone). Not sure when, so whether it was pre- or during season three.

 

[spockboy]

Fine, expand on that.

"Half the reason s3 is disliked is that for many fans, the romantic content, and extra emotion in stories too, is "chick stuff" and probably wouldn't go over with these fans no matter how well handled."

Okay first of all that is QUITE an oversimplification. I've just looked over a list of all the episodes and I see no more "romance" or "extra emotion" (whatever that means) in Season 3 than in any other season. For me the problems with Season 3 (or ANY bad Trek episode) was never the concept, it was the execution.

Second, TOS fans are for the most part, extremely imaginative and very romantic. That's why we prefer TOS in the first place! TOS music alone is rife with romance and adventure. Much more than ANY OTHER Trek series. Calling it "chick stuff" is frankly an insult to the depth of feeling that most Trek fans have, which based on their vociferous nature in lobbying for a Trek with depth and not PEW PEW Villainous nonsense alone, demonstrates fully, their true desire for depth.
In fact it demonstrates that the OPPOSITE of what you say is true, because it is the same shallow people that ONLY love PEW PEW movies that don't like TOS because it is "too cheesy" or contains (as you put it) "chick stuff"

Lastly, if it has all of this "chick stuff" as you call it, then why do so many woman not like Star Trek TOS?

"The other half of the s3 dislike is the overwhelming irritation factor of certain moments or short scenes. An annoying thing happens for 20 seconds, and that's enough to distract totally from 3/4 of an hour of good story"

Okay what does that even mean? Again, oversimplification.
You asked me to expand so please oblige us all by doing the same.
Define your terms;
-What irritation factor?
-What certain moments or short scenes?
-How are they annoying?

"If all we had of Trek was s3, it would still be honored as this great, obscure show, despite the flaws"

-------

 

[ZapBrannigan]

If all we had of Trek was s3, it would still be honored as this great, obscure show, despite the flaws.

That is true. For proof, just look at Man From Atlantis. The show had only 17 episodes, it had only one distinctive, memorable character, and the writing was nowhere near as good as TOS Year 3. Toward the end, the last few episodes of MFA deteriorated into absolute juvenile drivel. The final season of Star Trek has every advantage over Man From Atlantis.

And yet some of us remember MFA as "this great, obscure show" with exciting music scores, awesome submarine miniature fx, and a cool, near-superhero leading man. It's still talked about on message boards. It got a complete DVD release from Warner Archive that I was thrilled to buy.

If TOS S3 were the whole of Star Trek, I would still be a fan of the show and there would probably be a DVD set enshrined in my home.

 

[UnknownSample]

Spockboy, or should I say Mr. Prosecutor, you are an internet pit bull. Get your damn teeth out of my leg.
------------------
All this was my working theory. Well worded, interesting opinions to the contrary would be welcome. Contempt isn't.
--------------------
I have nothing to add. I'm not compiling a laundry list of instances of a more emotional tone and/or romance in season 3. It's a general impression. And I'm not on trial. I'm just making conversation. This "insult" of mine, the "chick stuff"... I was of course criticizing any attitude of that kind. I've noticed it. There are fans who think that romantic content is a slip in quality, and prefer action. I thought we might be dealing with some of that here. Insult? Just speculating and wondering.

 

[spockboy]

Spockboy, or should I say Mr. Prosecutor, you are an internet pit bull. Get your damn teeth out of my leg.
------------------
All this was my working theory. Well worded, interesting opinions to the contrary would be welcome. Contempt isn't.
--------------------
I have nothing to add. I'm not compiling a laundry list of instances of a more emotional tone and/or romance in season 3. It's a general impression. And I'm not on trial. I'm just making conversation. This "insult" of mine, the "chick stuff"... I was of course criticizing any attitude of that kind. I've noticed it. There are fans who think that romantic content is a slip in quality, and prefer action. I thought we might be dealing with some of that here. Insult? Just speculating and wondering.

LOL.
Yes this is very typical these days.
Instead of debating your points, you take things personally and resort to the ad hominem insult.

I have no problem with you, I don't know you.
My problem was with your argument.
The idea of having "contempt" for someone on a forum discussing Star Trek is hilarious to me.

I even put a winky face and funny gifs at the end (of my "contempt" ) to keep things light.

Sorry to offend you sir.

PS-I was nowhere near your leg.

 

[Galileo7]

I think people moan about series 2 of Space 1999 because it was so not series 1 in stories, style and credibility! But yes without Fred the show may not have continued into it's second year! And I'm a big fan of The Bringers of Wonder two parter!
JB

Agree. Like TOS season 1, SPACE:1999 season 1 was extremely good. Unlike TOS season 2, SPACE:1999 season 2 radically altered the series with major changes in cast, Alpha Moonbase sets, uniforms, opening credits/score and storytelling style. With all of these changes, I still am grateful for the second season, although I wish they had retained the first season opening credits/score.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Agree. Like TOS season 1, SPACE:1999 season 1 was extremely good. Unlike TOS season 2, SPACE:1999 season 2 radically altered the series with major changes in cast, Alpha Moonbase sets, uniforms, opening credits/score and storytelling style. With all of these changes, I still am grateful for the second season, although I wish they had retained the first season opening credits/score.

The Barry Gray music really didn't fit the second year's style. With the more driving action and (over) dramatic storylines, a more action oriented, less overtly grandiose kind of music fit a little better. I loved Derek Wadsworth's music, even if it did get way over the top by the time he scored "Space Warp." I always found that Barry Gray's music fit the the visuals perfectly but don't make that compelling a score album. However, Wadsworth music, while often over the top on TV, makes for a very entertaining listen on CD.

Eh, the music for both years was really great. My only real issues with 1999 were in where it either got silly/boring/incomprehensible and Barbara Bain; she was either wooden as my dining room table or whiny (second year). She was the worst "crier" on TV.

 

[Galileo7]

The Barry Gray music really didn't fit the second year's style. With the more driving action and (over) dramatic storylines, a more action oriented, less overtly grandiose kind of music fit a little better. I loved Derek Wadsworth's music, even if it did get way over the top by the time he scored "Space Warp." I always found that Barry Gray's music fit the the visuals perfectly but don't make that compelling a score album. However, Wadsworth music, while often over the top on TV, makes for a very entertaining listen on CD.

Eh, the music for both years was really great. My only real issues with 1999 were in where it either got silly/boring/incomprehensible and Barbara Bain; she was either wooden as my dining room table or whiny (second year). She was the worst "crier" on TV.

I meant the opening credit score, not the music within the episodes.

So here is SPACE:1999 season 2 opening credits/score:

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Here is SPACE:1999 season 2 done with season 1 opening credits/score at the 3 minute 42 second point:

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I like this opening credits/score the best. I think it should have been used for both seasons.

 

[Voth commando1]

TOS was in constant risk of cancellation and Roddenberry had to play ball with different studios and writers and producers. While producing family friendly sci fi on a shoe lace budget.

It's a wonder there was a franchise at all given the pressures TOS was under.

That's why it deserves our praise, it might look campy, the female outfits, parallel earths, bad sets, and the like might be grating to audiences spoiled by CGI and top notch production values but it lasted and it built something that endured now for 50 years.

 

[Nerys Myk]

TOS was in constant risk of cancellation and Roddenberry had to play ball with different studios and writers and producers. While producing family friendly sci fi on a shoe lace budget.

He played ball with two studios: Desilu and then Paramount. Only because Desilu was sold to Gulf + Western and merged with Paramount.
Using various writers was the norm for the TV of the time. They pretty much answered to him or DC Fontana. They would rewrite scripts to make them "Star Trek". A few writers weren't too fond of that **cough** Ellison**cough**
He was the Executive Producer, the producers answered to him.
He did have to answer to the Network (NBC)
Trek was family friendly in the sense that all TV of that time was "family friendly", but it was intended for adult audiences.
The budget wasn't shoestring, just not adequate for the show's ambition. MA has the average cost per episode as $190,635.which is $1,377,554.77 in 2017

 

[Mr Awe]

TOS was in constant risk of cancellation and Roddenberry had to play ball with different studios and writers and producers. While producing family friendly sci fi on a shoe lace budget.

If I recall correctly, the budget for TOS was hardly shoe lace. Looked it up. The cost in the initial season per episode was about $190,000. Adjusted for inflation, that comes to $1.3 million per episode in current dollars. The shoe lace budget is just one of those myths that persists. However, I'm sure the high budget is one reason why there was a lot of pressure on it to perform.

ETA: rats, beat to the punch!

Mr Awe

 

[Lance]

One suggestion given on the 'Roddenberry Vault' DVDs is that, they had the money/drive/ambition/time in the beginning to tell the stories they really wanted to tell, and to develop them and craft them through rewrites. But as time went on, their abilities in all of these areas lessened. Particularly in the areas of time, as they had less of it to be able to develop the stories to their fullest potential as the schedule and pressure to have episodes "in the can" in time got greater; and the area of money, as more and more stories needed to rely on standing sets because they didn't have the cash to spend on location filming and for building new planet sets, in part due to the network pulling money, and in part because the regular cast needed more cash every time their contracts got renewed. Season 3 has actually got it's fair share of remarkable story concepts under its belt, but it just doesn't have the means to nurture and develop them in the same way that they did back in Season 1.

 

[UnknownSample]

LOL.
Yes this is very typical these days.
Instead of debating your points, you take things personally and resort to the ad hominem insult.

I have no problem with you, I don't know you.
My problem was with your argument.
The idea of having "contempt" for someone on a forum discussing Star Trek is hilarious to me.

I even put a winky face and funny gifs at the end (of my "contempt" ) to keep things light.

Sorry to offend you sir.

PS-I was nowhere near your leg.

Nope, you were taking my remarks, speculations, way too seriously, demanding a list of justifications, ending with little mocking video clips of people laughing it up at the idea of anyone thinking s3 is any good. I don't want this thing continued. Just consider not doing this sort of thing.

 

[Voth commando1]

It was a shoelace budget because look at the costumes and sets-cheap as heck even for Sixties standards.

 

[Voth commando1]

Didn't they have to film whole episodes in ten minutes or something? With no reshoots or retakes? Cause if they did that that's medal worthy.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It was a shoelace budget because look at the costumes and sets-cheap as heck even for Sixties standards.

Where are you getting this idea? The sets, effects and costumes were on par for most 60's TV shows. better than some. Even cutting edge. Though unlike some shows, they didn't have pre-existing sets and costumes that could be used

Didn't they have to film whole episodes in ten minutes or something? With no reshoots or retakes? Cause if they did that that's medal worthy.

And this one? Like most shows the episodes were a six day shoot. Some ran over for various reasons.

 

[scotpens]

. . . Lastly, if it has all of this "chick stuff" as you call it, then why do so many women not like Star Trek TOS?

Do you have a citation or source for that? In fact, in the early days of organized Trek fandom, when TOS was the only Star Trek, 80 to 90 percent of Trek fanfic was written by women.

 

[Noname Given]

One suggestion given on the 'Roddenberry Vault' DVDs is that, they had the money/drive/ambition/time in the beginning to tell the stories they really wanted to tell, and to develop them and craft them through rewrites. But as time went on, their abilities in all of these areas lessened. Particularly in the areas of time, as they had less of it to be able to develop the stories to their fullest potential as the schedule and pressure to have episodes "in the can" in time got greater; and the area of money, as more and more stories needed to rely on standing sets because they didn't have the cash to spend on location filming and for building new planet sets, in part due to the network pulling money, and in part because the regular cast needed more cash every time their contracts got renewed. Season 3 has actually got it's fair share of remarkable story concepts under its belt, but it just doesn't have the means to nurture and develop them in the same way that they did back in Season 1.

I doubt that - all through the fist season they were managing to deliver episodes either on the day of, or a day prior to broadcast; and it was a concern on the Network (IE that they were always VERY tight with finished episode delivery. I believe it was mentioned that one reason the Network and the Production staff liked the idea of using footage from the original unaired pilot "The Cage" to make the two-part episode "The Menagerie", was that not only did it allow them to make use of some very expensive footage - it also gave them a little breathing room because they basically had to weeks to deliver one new episode (and mostly a 'bottle episode'; that was easier on the overall budget) at that.