Why the hatred for Voyager?

[number6]

exodus said:

donners22 said: I think you each know people with far too much time on their hands...

I think you need to keep your assumptions of people you don't know to yourself.

Dude. Seriously.

We all have too much time on our hands if we're constantly discussing this in such great detail. Watching an entire series from front to back and then coming here to post about it?? Sounds like someone does have too much time on their hands. Donner's just calling a spade a spade and in this rare instance he would be correct.

 

[exodus]

number6 said:

exodus said:

donners22 said: I think you each know people with far too much time on their hands...

I think you need to keep your assumptions of people you don't know to yourself.

Dude. Seriously.

We all have too much time on our hands if we're constantly discussing this in such great detail. Watching an entire series from front to back and then coming here to post about it?? Sounds like someone does have too much time on their hands. Donner's just calling a spade a spade and in this rare instance he would be correct.

Only he isn't talking about anybody that does post here. The people Malcom and I are referring too don't post here, aren't members of the board and don't spend their time thinking about it. However, you're more than welcome to do the work sitting on my office desk & then clean, cook, do my laundry and keep up with all my bills as well as my SO, if you believe I have too much time on my hands.

So no, in both your cases you're still wrong and speaking of things and people you know nothing of.

Also, what does both of your personal opinions of people you don't know have to do with the topic presented? It doesn't, frankly it's just being rude for no damn good reason.

The topic is Voyager.

 

[JanineSal]

Who cares why other TREK fans hate VOYAGER? I loved it. It is still my favorite TREK show. And whether the show was good or not is merely subjective. There is no fact of whether it was the best or the worst.

Did VOYAGER have flaws? Yeah, it did. So did STAR TREK, THE NEXT GENERATION, DEEP SPACE NINE and especially ENTERPRISE.

The recent BATTLESTAR GALACTICA isn't exactly an example of superior science fiction . . . at least in my opinion. So what if it might be the darkest? That didn't save the show of occasional bad writing. And quite frankly, I believe that its reputation as the one of the best shows on the air has yet to be earned.

 

[Trekwatcher]

Interesting thread. I started an almost identical thread on the ENT forum a while back i.e. "Why do they hate ENT?".

I, for one, really enjoyed Voyager throughout its run, although I thought it was much better after they ditched the Kazon. I think at least some of the "hatred" for VOY (and ENT, for that matter) comes from the culture of BBS', as in this context opinions (good or bad) tend to be magnified. I.e. if someone says "I hated X" they draw responses like "I hated X too!!!!" or, "What? X is the greatest thing ever in the history of Star Trek!!!"

I watched all of Voyager during the original run before I had joined this BBS. Without all of the opinions of others to read, I largely just had my own opinion to form. I thought Mulgrew did a fine job as Janeway, and I thought that she, the Doctor, and Seven really carried the show.

We all have to evaluate each series on our own-watch what you like, skip what you don't. In the end, this is entertainment and should be a source of enjoyment, not friction.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yup. I was only disappointed before I joined up here. Zelous counter opinions forced me to polarize, then flee from the middle ground and compromise.

 

[exodus]

Trekwatcher said:
Interesting thread. I started an almost identical thread on the ENT forum a while back i.e. "Why do they hate ENT?".

I, for one, really enjoyed Voyager throughout its run, although I thought it was much better after they ditched the Kazon. I think at least some of the "hatred" for VOY (and ENT, for that matter) comes from the culture of BBS', as in this context opinions (good or bad) tend to be magnified. I.e. if someone says "I hated X" they draw responses like "I hated X too!!!!" or, "What? X is the greatest thing ever in the history of Star Trek!!!"

I watched all of Voyager during the original run before I had joined this BBS. Without all of the opinions of others to read, I largely just had my own opinion to form. I thought Mulgrew did a fine job as Janeway, and I thought that she, the Doctor, and Seven really carried the show.

We all have to evaluate each series on our own-watch what you like, skip what you don't. In the end, this is entertainment and should be a source of enjoyment, not friction.

I wish more were like you.

 

[Ezri]

If we really had hatred with Voyager we would not be posting within this tread because we would not be members of this forum. It should be called why we have a disappointment with Voyager then why the hatred for Voyager.

Nobody, not even a fan, or a cast member of Voyager would say the show was perfect. Only the on the site writers and the cast members with the floor crew that worked on the set of Voyager had any great understanding of the complex nature of the production. Every cast member is protective with their characters development. The writers do understand that they just cannot force cast members to undermine their own character if and only if they feel it is being undermined.

Since the show is in syndication, everyone that watches the show can nick pick the show to death. We can nick pick Voyager in 2008, and nick pick Voyager in 2018 and nick pick Voyager in 2028.

 

[donners22]

exodus said:

donners22 said: I think you each know people with far too much time on their hands...

I think you need to keep your assumptions of people you don't know to yourself. To do so is not only rude but very ignorant as well. It also has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


This is one thing I'll never understand about some posters on this site. They think they have the right to judge others & their lives based solely upon their opinions of a stupid sci-fi TV show.

Goodness, aren't we touchy?

If people can watch roughly 140 hours of something they DON'T LIKE, then I think that is (besides baffling) worthy of a rather mild, tongue-in-cheek jab. I thought that in the context of a relatively intelligent debate, I would not need a dozen safety smilies.

The point was more to do with a highlight that the comment that people watched the entirity of DS9 and didn't like it was rather silly. After all, why would one watch something one didn't like?

That's not a "judgment" of the people who have allegedly done so, rather a comment that such an argument is somewhat dubious or at least incomprehensible.

 

[donners22]

Ezri said:
If we really had hatred with Voyager we would not be posting within this tread because we would not be members of this forum. It should be called why we have a disappointment with Voyager then why the hatred for Voyager.

There are people who go out of their way to troll, though. I gave up on the Enterprise forums because I was just so sick of the negativity.

The problem is not so much with people who are "disappointed", it's with people who pre-judge things and then go out of their way to find evidence for their view.

I think those who go in with an open mind can find plenty to like about Voyager, despite the disappointments. Those who have a simple, unmitigated dislike of the series, failing to acknowledge any of its positives, fall into the "hatred" category.

That doesn't necessarily make that view less valid. It's a show's job to retain its viewers, and if some gave up on it at certain points and missed the better moments that came later, then that's the show's failure.

 

[Caprica_Six]

You have to understand that according to Malcom your opinion on Voyager doesn't count unless you were in the forum while it was airing This is the sort of "logic" you are working against here.

 

[Malcom]

Caprica_Six said:
You have to understand that according to Malcom your opinion on Voyager doesn't count unless you were in the forum while it was airing This is the sort of "logic" you are working against here.

Um... not what I said.

This is what misskim86 said:

I dunno what your problem is, did someone beat you while screaming DS9 was more sophisticated?

And, this is what I said:

A newbie that wasn't here while Voyager was on the air...

A reference to the fact that while Voyager was on the air, this kind of criticism of Voyager was very common and does NOT say that only those who participated in the forum while Voyager was on can legitimately criticise the show.

Whether or not someone was on this forum while Voyager aired is irrelevant to arguments they might make about the shows, it is relevant to discussions about the nature of criticism of the show on this board in the past. Neither you [03] nor misskim86 [06] were here in that time period and could not know what it was like on the board.

That is logical my friend.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The only difference between the old fans and the new fans, and this is an amazing difference, is that while we were rooting for them to get home... While we were panning the bad episodes and itching for the few good ones which made the bad ones tolerable, not that we ever considered cancellation a possibility... We had faith that someone if not Berman would get their shit together and rewidgit the format/bible so that Voyager DID LIVE UP TO IT'S POTENTIAL CONSTANTLY and not just churn out more of the same crap.

New fans from after Endgame never had this imperative, because they know as soon as they sit down in front of the telly that Voyager is just a show about a about a spaceship which has maybe 4 truly excellent episodes a season and there's no point down the line where everything markedly improves and goes down the toilet.

Voyager is no longer a mystery.

 

[Caprica_Six]

Malcom said:

Whether or not someone was on this forum while Voyager aired is irrelevant to arguments they might make about the shows, it is relevant to discussions about the nature of criticism of the show on this board in the past. Neither you [03] nor misskim86 [06] were here in that time period and could not know what it was like on the board.

That is logical my friend.

The thread topic is "Why the hatred for Voyager?" not "Why the hatred for Voyager on TrekBBS?". I am well aware of what went on here and have been told about it constantly but we are talking about the here and now and this bizzare exclusivity you and exodus have formed on who has the rights to share their opinions on how Voyager is perceived is one of the many reasons this forum and it's occupants are labeled as unfriendly and overly defensive.

So yeah your opinions as well as his only go to further the perception that a select few only have valid opinions to be shared in this forum because if anyone dares criticize the show the eager defenders go onto attack whatever other program they believe the so-called attackers may like- it's childish. If someone is new in the forum don't try and shut them up because they haven't taken Voyager 101: Introduction to the Voyager forum history

 

[startrekwatcher]

Trekwatcher said:
I think at least some of the "hatred" for VOY (and ENT, for that matter) comes from the culture of BBS', as in this context opinions (good or bad) tend to be magnified. I.e. if someone says "I hated X" they draw responses like "I hated X too!!!!" or, "What? X is the greatest thing ever in the history of Star Trek!!!"

That has been my experience as well. Needless to say that "the internet experience" in general has been an eye-opening one.

It is social psychology at work. When people's opinions are validated by others it is reassuring but when they aren't some get defensive even moreso when the criticism is handled in a loud obnoxious tacky way. It makes an otherwise rational person feel like they have to respond in kind which just makes things get ugly as things escalate because no one wants to backdown and be seen as losing the argument. Sadly I even found myself in my early days on the 'net getting caught up in it. Sometimes I even wondered why I would come to a forum if nothing productive occurred except endless arguments where neither side would yield.

Nowadays I just periodically peak in to see who is still around and what topics are popular and what opinions are seemingly universal over the years regardless of the posters at any given time.

I will say dipping my toes in the internet made me aware of things I never could have imagined--shipper wars, slash, petitions to save shows, so much concern over ratings, fans wanting to not only find out every little detail of a film or episode months in advance but to dissect it as well, the idea of canon-nazis etc etc.

A lot of that and the ensuing arguments took the fun out of things for me so I stepped back and mostly just watch what I want and not concern myself with what others may or may not like.

I watched all of Voyager during the original run before I had joined this BBS. Without all of the opinions of others to read, I largely just had my own opinion to form. I thought Mulgrew did a fine job as Janeway, and I thought that she, the Doctor, and Seven really carried the show.

For me VOY plays better years later because you know what you are getting. It is a decent series but even when I was disappointed in it I never could say I hated it.

 

[Jeri]

misskim86 said:
And no I can't accept that someone who watched DS9 from start till finish won't think it's the best or atleast 2nd best Trek show ever. Infact it is impossible for someone born and raised in the western hemispheres cultural ethnicity to dislike DS9 once they seen all of it from start to finish.

We spent the $700-some bucks on the DVD's and watched DS-9 in order. We still dislike it; but I'm a Trek fan, and I wanted to know what happened in that part of the story.

My husband and I were both born here in the US. DS-9 is still my least favorite Trek. I doubt we're the only people in the west who have watched it all in order and still dislike it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Cyberspace is not the US.

I've sat through some crap in my time. But paying for the privilege of being continued to... I nearly walked out of the Avengers, but I was with people who drove me to the theatre.

 

[Malcom]

Caprica_Six said:

Malcom said:

Whether or not someone was on this forum while Voyager aired is irrelevant to arguments they might make about the shows, it is relevant to discussions about the nature of criticism of the show on this board in the past. Neither you [03] nor misskim86 [06] were here in that time period and could not know what it was like on the board.

That is logical my friend.

The thread topic is "Why the hatred for Voyager?" not "Why the hatred for Voyager on TrekBBS?". I am well aware of what went on here and have been told about it constantly but we are talking about the here and now and this bizzare exclusivity you and exodus have formed on who has the rights to share their opinions on how Voyager is perceived is one of the many reasons this forum and it's occupants are labeled as unfriendly and overly defensive.

So yeah your opinions as well as his only go to further the perception that a select few only have valid opinions to be shared in this forum because if anyone dares criticize the show the eager defenders go onto attack whatever other program they believe the so-called attackers may like- it's childish. If someone is new in the forum don't try and shut them up because they haven't taken Voyager 101: Introduction to the Voyager forum history

Misskim86 made an inquiry as to whether or not I'd been beaten about the head and shoulders by people saying "DS9 is more sophisticated." I responded that, yes, indeed that was often the case here when Voyager was on the air.

The issue was not who is justified in criticizing Voyager on this board at all, it is about what criticism Voyager received on this board in the past and from whom.

I made no beef with folks that want to criticize Voyager or their right to do so. Plenty of folks new to the board and new to Voyager come in and out of here with their comments. No problemmo. I agree with many of their comments. But misskim86 was making a specific reference to my past experience with DS9 fans and I responded.

What's difficult about understanding that?

I can see I'm in a battle of wits with an unarmed poster. In political polling, we count on people like you - thanks!

 

[JanineSal]

Had there been consistentcy in quality there wouldn't be all this complaining for either VOY or ENT.

Why stop at VOY and ENT? Heck, I've had a lot to complain about the inconsistency of quality in ORIGINAL SERIES, TNG and DS9.

All the TREK franchise has created five pretty damn good shows, yet not one of them is innocent of a lack of inconsistency in quality. Which is why I find the targeting of hatred toward VOY and ENT "only" by many TREK fans rather questionable.

 

[misskim86]

I'm actually watching Voy right now for the first time (Got the Borg cube for xmas) and I'm on the 4th season, I had no idea that Voyager was universally disliked before I started to watch it or so.

 

[misskim86]

JanineSal said:

Had there been consistentcy in quality there wouldn't be all this complaining for either VOY or ENT.

Why stop at VOY and ENT? Heck, I've had a lot to complain about the inconsistency of quality in ORIGINAL SERIES, TNG and DS9.

All the TREK franchise has created five pretty damn good shows, yet not one of them is innocent of a lack of inconsistency in quality. Which is why I find the targeting of hatred toward VOY and ENT "only" by many TREK fans rather questionable.

I've been trying to explain that.

TNG had some bad episodes no doubt, BUT the show made progress, it introduced new things new ideas, new concepts.

DS9 had some bad episodes no doubt, BUT the show made progress, it introduced long story arcs, it progressed beyond the alien of the week with ridged forehead topped with a reset button.

THEN we get VOY which is a step BACK to TNG. If Voy had come before DS9 or same time as TNG it could be forgivable but not now.

And finally we have ENT which hasn't progressed ONE BIT. It's STILL freaking alien of the week with ridged forehead and a reset button.. and this is in 2002!!! When they have shows like Sex and the city, Sopranos, 24(i think) and other shows to compete with. The audience EVOLVED but Star Trek freaking DE-evolved. And that's why I think so many people have problems with VOY and ENT.

Had they come in 1989 the shows would have been awesome, now they were just sad proof that the Trek producers had run out of ideas and had no clue how to keep up with the times.