Why the hatred for Voyager?

[Ezri]

Think there is a difference with Voyager and BSG, even that they want to get to Earth there is a difference. Voyager understands were Earth is BSG is just hoping they are going in the right direction. Voyager understands Earth is real, BSG hopes that there is a real Earth. Voyager understands the culture of Earth, BSG has no clue about the culture.

When thinking of BSG when they are thinking of Earth, I feel it is their hope that Earth has a fleet of warships that can start the conquest to retake what was lost and defeat the Cylons. If they find Earth in the year 2008, the Cylons will win the war. The fleet would not cut and run like they always do when faced with a few base ships and let the Cylons just nuke Earth on a nice summer day. What would happen is that Galactica would be destroyed, than the rest of the fleet and then Earth is nuked.

Voyager and BSG are different, as Voyager did bring the Borg to Earth and the Borg were destroyed. BSG will bring the Cylons, and what can Earth do to defend itself … NOTHING.

 

[misskim86]

Again, how do you know they "didn't watch it"?

Because the reasons you/your siblings didn't like ds9 simply doesn't make sense.

Didn't like the show because of the lounge singer? Well for one he did have a name and he was featured in maybe 5-6 episodes and all of those in end of season 6 and 7 and it was HARDLY any big roles except for one episode in season 7, and if you've only watched DS9 sporadicly until season 6 and 7 you won't like anyone.

And "the traders" which apparently were ferengi..I still don't get who you mean by those and I've watched Ds9 several times. I wonder if anyone else can understand which characters you mean by that. Unless you mean Quark the bartender, since he traded stuff once every blue moon. Other than that there were no designated "traders"

It's as I said obvious you didn't watch DS9 from start till finish.

And no I can't accept that someone who watched DS9 from start till finish won't think it's the best or atleast 2nd best Trek show ever. Infact it is impossible for someone born and raised in the western hemispheres cultural ethnicity to dislike DS9 once they seen all of it from start to finish.

 

[Ezri]

misskim86 said:
And no I can't accept that someone who watched DS9 from start till finish won't think it's the best or atleast 2nd best Trek show ever. Infact it is impossible for someone born and raised in the western hemispheres cultural ethnicity to dislike DS9 once they seen all of it from start to finish.

Have watched the show from start till finish. Would not say it was the best or the worst, it just worked well with the 1990's. Since 9/11 season 1 till season 3 does not work well in reruns.

 

[Guy Gardener]

DS9 didn't break out of the TOS/TNG/VOY/ENT bottle neck formula until season three. claiming that the Voyager like seasons are the worst is no basis to say that voyager is better than anything other than being Voyager.

I think most people don't watch TV. They just have it on in the background so their friends and family don't know how much they drink. It's just a diversionary tactic to avoid interventions and rehab.

 

[misskim86]

Why don't you think season 1-3 works because of 911? I can't see any connection

 

[exodus]

misskim86 said:


And no I can't accept that someone who watched DS9 from start till finish won't think it's the best or atleast 2nd best Trek show ever. Infact it is impossible for someone born and raised in the western hemispheres cultural ethnicity to dislike DS9 once they seen all of it from start to finish.

Your arguement just fell apart with this drastic overstated assumption.

Just come right out and say it: "Anyone that doesn't like DS9 as much as I do is wrong." That in a nutshell is exactly what you're saying right here.

 

[Ezri]

misskim86 said:
Why don't you think season 1-3 works because of 911? I can't see any connection

The primary mission of season one was the building of the Bajorian characters. When we think of the Bajorians what do we think of them as characters.

1. The Bajorians used religion to unit themselves during the decades of the occupation.
2. Kira was in a terrorist cell during the occupation and talks about tactics used during the occupation.
3. Weak Bajorian government being propped up by the federation, Sisko and the federation manage DS9.

Not going to say the Bajorians mirror the current state of affairs after 9/11 and the war in Iraqi. It is just my feeling if someone wanted to have DS9 produced in 2008 like it was designed in season one it would not have gotten off the table.

 

[misskim86]

Ok I can understand that, I think movie and tv production in general didn't dare to bring up sensitive stuff after 911, but I really don't see how season 1-3 don't work. I agree they mirror Iraq in some ways but the Cardassians were ruthless. I dunno if I can call Kira a terrorist.

Anyhoo this subject is going kinda OT. It's an interesting subject for the DS9 forum though

 

[misskim86]

exodus said:

misskim86 said:


And no I can't accept that someone who watched DS9 from start till finish won't think it's the best or atleast 2nd best Trek show ever. Infact it is impossible for someone born and raised in the western hemispheres cultural ethnicity to dislike DS9 once they seen all of it from start to finish.

Your arguement just fell apart with this drastic overstated assumption.

Just come right out and say it: "Anyone that doesn't like DS9 as much as I do is wrong." That in a nutshell is exactly what you're saying right here.

No not at all, sorry you're wrong. I don't expect people to like it as much as I do, but I can't see how someone who has seen all of ds9 in order can dislike it.

And saying DS9 was bad because of "the lounge singer" and "the traders" is just proof that they didn't watch all of it and I willingly admit that if you just watch ds9 with no order or anything.. yeah "the lounge singer" and "the traders" (whoever that is) will most likely suck


Anyway I'd love to be proven wrong, show me someone who watched it all and didn't like ds9

 

[exodus]

misskim86 said:

exodus said:

misskim86 said:


And no I can't accept that someone who watched DS9 from start till finish won't think it's the best or atleast 2nd best Trek show ever. Infact it is impossible for someone born and raised in the western hemispheres cultural ethnicity to dislike DS9 once they seen all of it from start to finish.

Your arguement just fell apart with this drastic overstated assumption.

Just come right out and say it: "Anyone that doesn't like DS9 as much as I do is wrong." That in a nutshell is exactly what you're saying right here.

No not at all, sorry you're wrong. I don't expect people to like it as much as I do, but I can't see how someone who has seen all of ds9 in order can dislike it.

And saying DS9 was bad because of "the lounge singer" and "the traders" is just proof that they didn't watch all of it and I willingly admit that if you just watch ds9 with no order or anything.. yeah "the lounge singer" and "the traders" (whoever that is) will most likely suck


Anyway I'd love to be proven wrong, show me someone who watched it all and didn't like ds9

If they knew of the "lounge singer", wouldn't that be a clue they made it too the end of the series?

Malcom, myself and several others have stated they know people personally that have watched DS9 from start to finish and didn't like it. Is there some unwritten law that says if you watch DS9 completely that you must like it? You're in the "Voyager" forum, among Voyager fans. This proves Trek fans can watch & like Voyager, so why is hard for you to grasp that Trek fans can watch & not like DS9?

You were proven wrong the minute you believed something was absolute. Besides death, nothing but nothing in our entire universe is absolute.

 

[misskim86]

He said they didn't like DS9 because of the lounge singer, the lounge singer is such a small part of the show that it's a ridicuous statement. It's like I'd say I didn't like Voyager because of "that Cardassian woman"

And sorry to break it but there are several absolute nature laws.


Anyway you know it's fine that you like Voy, heck I like some episodes, but my gripe is that it was still a huge step back and the beginning of the end for Star Trek because the show de-evolved instead of evolving. And by the time they came to do ENT they chose to not do anything new and just make a bad copy of a bad copy.

No matter what you say, the new concept for good tv shows today are long story arcs and not episodic aliens of the week. The general audience outgrew those around 2000

People want shows like 24, Rome, Sopranos and Prison Break.

 

[exodus]

misskim86 said:
He said they didn't like DS9 because of the lounge singer, the lounge singer is such a small part of the show that it's a ridicuous statement. It's like I'd say I didn't like Voyager because of "that Cardassian woman"

First off, Malcom is a "she".

Second, it's no more or less ridiculous a statement than: "If you don't like DS9, you didn't watch it all the way through."


Anyway, we're way off topic.
The subject is actually Voyager, not DS9.

 

[Ezri]

misskim86 said:
Ok I can understand that, I think movie and tv production in general didn't dare to bring up sensitive stuff after 911, but I really don't see how season 1-3 don't work. I agree they mirror Iraq in some ways but the Cardassians were ruthless. I dunno if I can call Kira a terrorist.

Anyhoo this subject is going kinda OT. It's an interesting subject for the DS9 forum though

Yes it is not right to talk about it in the Voyager area. If you want to talk about it in the DS9 area that is fine with me. Still, it may be a hard subject to talk about without bring out passions on both sides. It is not my mission to start a tread that could end in a flam war.

SUBJECT CLOSED

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Maquis are nice terrorists.

 

[donners22]

Ezri said:

misskim86 said:
Why don't you think season 1-3 works because of 911? I can't see any connection

The primary mission of season one was the building of the Bajorian characters. When we think of the Bajorians what do we think of them as characters.

1. The Bajorians used religion to unit themselves during the decades of the occupation.
2. Kira was in a terrorist cell during the occupation and talks about tactics used during the occupation.
3. Weak Bajorian government being propped up by the federation, Sisko and the federation manage DS9.

Not going to say the Bajorians mirror the current state of affairs after 9/11 and the war in Iraqi. It is just my feeling if someone wanted to have DS9 produced in 2008 like it was designed in season one it would not have gotten off the table.

I cannot stand that argument. Terrorism existed LONG before it affected the USA. Some people may be afraid to produce storylines like those these days, but I think intelligent viewers will be able to accept them regardless of recent events. The justification for their actions is made clear, and it is for viewers to accept whether it was "right" or not. It is certainly not a one-sided argument that is presented - more than once Kira was confronted with the demons of her past actions.

I found the Bajorans quite boring and tedious, simply because religion tends to be badly handled in Trek (Voyager's Emanations an exception), but I'm not going to regard them any differently after "9/11".

 

[donners22]

exodus said:
Malcom, myself and several others have stated they know people personally that have watched DS9 from start to finish and didn't like it.

Why would somebody watch seven seasons, something like 140 hours, of something they did not like? I think you each know people with far too much time on their hands...

 

[Ezri]

Donners22

I respect your argument, I respect your point of view, I respect you passion with DS9. With the market audience of any star trek series, the primary audience is the United States; the secondary audience is Canada, and tied for third the United Kingdom and Australia, with the rest of the Commonwealth of Nations; the last audience is the rest of the world. We may or may not like this arrangement, still with the production of the episodes produced in California with non acting produced in the United States and Canada it is clear the targeted audience is the United States first and Canada second.

If DS9 was being debated to have its first season in the fall of 2008, would have to say it would be preferred to table the production or just outright cancel any and all debate to have the show. It is very much a given the final season and the way the ending of DS9 was produced it was gearing itself up for a movie. With the ending of the series in 1999, the logical choice to produce the movie would have been in 2004 till 2009. The syndication of DS9 have always been weak, it was not accepted well. In a head to head contest, DS9 has lost out to TNG and Voyager as the most preferred Star Trek show in syndication.

True, I am a fan of DS9; still I just do not see a market with DS9 being equal with the rest of the Star Trek series in syndication. Therefore, I would have to say the backlash of 9/11 has an impact with the show one way or the other.

 

[misskim86]

I don't see how they were gearing themselves up for a movie, I thought DS9 if any show had the ending of all endings. What with everyone leaving DS9, Sisko with the aliens, Worf as an ambassador and then back with Picard, O'Brian on Earth.

 

[Malcom]

misskim86 said:
He said they didn't like DS9 because of the lounge singer, the lounge singer is such a small part of the show that it's a ridicuous statement. It's like I'd say I didn't like Voyager because of "that Cardassian woman"

And sorry to break it but there are several absolute nature laws.


Anyway you know it's fine that you like Voy, heck I like some episodes, but my gripe is that it was still a huge step back and the beginning of the end for Star Trek because the show de-evolved instead of evolving. And by the time they came to do ENT they chose to not do anything new and just make a bad copy of a bad copy.

No matter what you say, the new concept for good tv shows today are long story arcs and not episodic aliens of the week. The general audience outgrew those around 2000

People want shows like 24, Rome, Sopranos and Prison Break.

Gee whiz!
I corrected the 'Ferengi'. Hated them.

You simply do not understand that people have different preferences. What's so difficult to understand? I'm not saying one show's better than the other. I'm not saying that people are crazy to like one show and not the other. YOU ARE. I have some friends that adored DS9.

I said some of my friends simply did not like the characters. It's that simple. No big deal. I just didn't want to watch political maneuvering after a day of...political manuevering. I said I didn't watch "West Wing" for the same reason. What don't you understand?

"Law and Order," one of the most popular shows the past 10+ years is not serialized. Fine. "24" is. That's fine too.

If your favorite color is red, can you understand that some people might like blue?

 

[Velocity]

Voyager disappointed me in a few ways. I wished the Maquis and the Federation crews had never gone Brady Bunch. There would have been a better dynamic if a certain amount of tension had remained. The characters didn't have much individuality, they were mostly human. B'lanna just seemed like a cranky human, there was little Klingon beyond her forehead. Chakotay should have been dangerous and less Yes'm. Tuvok wasn't a bad Vulcan, but he had little to do. The romances were awkward and seemed contrived, but that's true for all Trek shows. Voyager's weakness might have been that their main enemy was time and distance, a faceless enemy. About the only Voyager ep I remember fondly is Muse, but I don't hate the show.