Why the assumption that the Earth/Romulan War Was 4 years long?

[Dayton3]

I know it hasn't been established onscreen, but it seems like alot of the Trek reference material makes the assumption that the Earth/Romulan War was four years long.

The only thing I can think of is that American involvement in World War II, the entirety of World War I, and the U.S. Civil War were each around 4 years.

Three examples, but there are countless examples of war lasting longer or shorter than 4 years.

I liked Diane Duane' description of the Earth/Romulan War in "The Romulan Way" where she described it as lasting for 25 years.

FASA's "The Romulan War" supplement had the Earth/Romulan War lasting about 3 years, "officially", but hostilities were ongoing for fully 17 years.

In my own made up history for the Earth/Romulan War, I made it a 30 year plus conflict. Mainly because of the vast distances and low warp speeds involved.

 

[Anwar]

Well ENT shot that down, since the Romulan War had been over for over 100 years in 2267 ("Balance of Terror") and by ENT S4 (2156?) there had been no real contact between the Romulans and anyone else, and the ENT finale (in 2160) the war was over.

I think the idea that no one had ever encountered the Romulans before the war and the first contact was war is a bad idea. They could have had ENT with the Romulans as a known power, but they just didn't interact much in galactic politics and always sent Remans or other Romulan slave races to do the talking and representations for them.

 

[Geoff]

Well ENT shot that down, since the Romulan War had been over for over 100 years in 2267 ("Balance of Terror") and by ENT S4 (2156?) there had been no real contact between the Romulans and anyone else, and the ENT finale (in 2160) the war was over.

Actually, we don't know that the war had already been fought in 2160, since TATV makes no mention of the war whatsoever.

Granted, it's pretty safe to assume that there was no war going on during TATV, so the war either occurred sometime between 2155-2160 (which has always been the assumption of The Star Trek Chronology), or it occurred between 2160-2167 (ending in time to allow for the 100 years with no contact leading up to "Balance of Terror").

The consensus seems to be that the war was fought prior to the founding of the Federation, given that Spock refers to it as the "Earth-Romulan War," not the "Federation-Romulan War."

 

[Anwar]

Of course, the REAL reason Spock said that was because they hadn't fully conceived the Federation as a multi-species organization in BoT. At the time of that episode the idea was that the Federation was the "Earth Federation" and it was more a benevolent Terran Empire where the humans allowed the other aliens in as weak partners instead of outright conquering them.

 

[Timo]

In addition, Spock referred to the existence of allies in that old war. In current retrospect, it seems unlikely the Romulans would have had much in the way of allies, while Earth would only have gained true allies after the penultimate episode of ENT, so the date for the war is indeed narrowed down to between 2154 and the late 22nd century.

..the Romulan War had been over for over 100 years in 2267 ("Balance of Terror")

The exact dialogue only refers to the war having happened "a century" ago, never using the keyword "over". So it would be valid to speculate that the war ended, say, ninety years before the episode, and Spock was catering for the human need to round all figures.

So the allowed dates are 2154-2160, 2160-ca. 2180, and just possibly ca. 2130-2151 (assuming the war was a relatively minor affair that our ENT heroes don't feel the need to discuss).

Allowed duration thus is anything from, say, two weeks to two decades. It should be noted that in "Balance of Terror", the self-admitted history buff and consummate soldier Kirk is almost completely ignorant of the old conflict, even when he recalls the 19th century history of the United States in surprising detail, and appreciates the finer points of ancient battles. This would seem to suggest that the "Romulan War" in fact was a bloody but short and obscure brawl in the farthest hinterlands of Earth's dominion, involving only a tiny fraction of Starfleet for a short period of time, and/or being overshadowed by a much larger conflict that occured elsewhere and against other opponents but in the same timeframe. Why, it doesn't even seem to be a mandatory subject at Starfleet Academy!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nebusj]

..the Romulan War had been over for over 100 years in 2267 ("Balance of Terror")

The exact dialogue only refers to the war having happened "a century" ago, never using the keyword "over". So it would be valid to speculate that the war ended, say, ninety years before the episode, and Spock was catering for the human need to round all figures.

No, the exact dialogue does say ``over a century ago''. The closed captioning (and thus its transcripts) are mistaken in, naturally, the critical word. But TrekCore has the relevant audio clip under
http://tos.trekcore.com/episodes/season1/1x14/audio.html
alongside (alas) the closed captioning transcript uncorrected.

Allowed duration thus is anything from, say, two weeks to two decades. It should be noted that in "Balance of Terror", the self-admitted history buff and consummate soldier Kirk is almost completely ignorant of the old conflict, even when he recalls the 19th century history of the United States in surprising detail, and appreciates the finer points of ancient battles.

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing what in the episode suggests Kirk wasn't familiar with the conflict. Kirk turns over the expository lump to Spock (as Science Officer, for some reason, rather than as First Officer), but that's again for the benefit of the crew rather than himself. I don't see him asking questions that suggest a lack of historical awareness; just an appreciation that after a century the old tactical information is probably irrelevant and there's not much sense still being angry about their great-grandfather's war. What gives you the impression of Kirk not knowing much about the old war?

 

[Timo]

Ah, so the "over" bit is where McCoy in the briefing room argues against everybody's eagerness to attack? TrekCore and many other sources indeed have it wrong, but Chakoteya's transcripts (http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/9.htm) feature the correct phrasing. My fault for not checking!

(Then again, when McCoy explodes about starting a fight for "...memories of a war over a century ago!", he might not be exact or knowledgeable with his figures. He is, after all, a doctor, not a re-enactor.)

What gives you the impression of Kirk not knowing much about the old war?

A valid point: it's just an impression. But I find it quite odd that Kirk would react with apparent surprise to the fact that the Romulan ships had birds on them (that's what his reaction looks like to me, rather than general surprise at Stiles for stating the factoid). I mean, that's about the only thing known about the enemy, so it should count for all the more. Could we forget that the Nazis were the guys who sported swastikas, or that the Japs were the ones with the rising sun symbol?

(In comparison, we might not have much of an inkling about the symbols worn by, say, the Chinese factions at the time, as their long and bloody struggle would be obscured by this larger one - even if that struggle intimately touched the United States as well.)

When that's how Kirk launches into this thing, and then relegates the knowledge stuff to Spock, never saying much himself, one may argue he's playing the usual strong and silent type, speaking little but saying a lot. But one may also argue he just plain lacks the knowledge to say anything about the subject. It's not as if he ever offers any true nuggets of information there, apart from his orders not to cross the Zone.

Compare this to other instances where Spock (or perhaps McCoy or Chekov) gives an introductory speech about the background of the week's adventure for the audience's benefit, and Kirk then fills in the details, seemingly showing off his expertise. Say, "Friday's Child" or "Trouble with Tribbles" or "A Private Little War". Kirk is really being exceptionally silent in "Balance of Terror".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MarianLH]

By way of comparison, how much do you suppose contemporary USN captains know about the Spanish-American war? Off the top of my head I know about the Maine and the rising importance of a new type of escort called the (torpedo boat) destroyer, but I couldn't tell you what colour the Spanish ships were painted.

But then, I didn't go to Annapolis, either.


Marian

 

[Saul]

I think the assumption is because of the Chronology. Since then everything else from websites to backround screens on Enterprise have referenced the 4 year date. It is possible the war took place before TATV or after as it was planned to be shown in a Movie set after the series. A 30 year plus conflict sounds cool and makes a little more sense since they were supposed to be more primitive ships. I imagine speed was a factor in this war and the winner was the side that achieved the higher warp speed.

 

[Timo]

By way of comparison, how much do you suppose contemporary USN captains know about the Spanish-American war?

Never mind professional soldiers, where would you find the Western European civilian who doesn't associate the century-old Gerry/Kraut/Boche menace with the iconic spiked helmets? (Even if those helmets were by then only worn by the top brass, and for show?)

And yeah, Annapolis students would be expected to study the Spanish-American war as the first international military confrontation the nascent US freely plunged itself into. And since that was the first real showing of the steam-powered US fleet, the technical minutiae would also be of great interest.

(As far a ship paint goes, the tropical white of the US fleet would be iconic enough from all sorts of old artwork. Remember the Maine? )

A 30 year plus conflict sounds cool and makes a little more sense since they were supposed to be more primitive ships. I imagine speed was a factor in this war and the winner was the side that achieved the higher warp speed.

Quite possible. Then again, the Italians were obsessed with speed (of their ships, aircraft and tanks alike) in WWII, and indeed attained superiority there, but their technology still proved inferior in virtually every respect.

And also with slow-moving ships, the war might be over in a matter of hours, with the conquest of planets completed in a single coordinated rush of simultaneous battles, and with the attempt at a counterstrike following three to five years too late to have any effect.

Still, as NX-01 managed to move from the outer fringes of Earth's reach back home in a matter of weeks at the end of the second season, it might be that mid-22nd century warp technology would already be good enough for relatively quick-paced warfare. Indeed, the abortive Vulcan-Andorian war in ENT might be a good example of the quick mobilization and deployment possibilities of the era. For all we know, a "fairly conventional Trek war" could have been fought and won/lost within the span of six episodes...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[USS KG5]

Compare this to other instances where Spock (or perhaps McCoy or Chekov) gives an introductory speech about the background of the week's adventure for the audience's benefit, and Kirk then fills in the details, seemingly showing off his expertise. Say, "Friday's Child" or "Trouble with Tribbles" or "A Private Little War". Kirk is really being exceptionally silent in "Balance of Terror".

Timo Saloniemi

Though he has the knowledge that no-one else does that his ship is very expendable for peace, his every move is probably calculated to avoid such a "Kobyashi Maru" scenario.

The other situations were considerably less immediately grave - Kirk probably rather enjoys the cold war posturing of many of the Klingon adventures and actively fears the unknown quantity of the Romulans.

 

[BrotherBenny]

The war supposedly lasted from 2156 to 2161, after which the Federastion Charter was signed and the Romulans retreated into their own territory.

I'm just glad that after 40 years of Star Trek, that one episode is finally being given the respect it deserves and the war will be given its due in the books.

2156-61 (inclusive) is technically 6 years and a (hot) war is technically defined as the moment that the aggressor attacks or the nation officially declares war to the point when the losers officially surrender. WWII for the world was 1939-45, but for the US was '41-'45.
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My supposition is that Earth was fed up of Romulan incursions into its allied reach (re: The Coalition of Planets) or one of the colony worlds belonging to the Coalition was attacked. If one is attacked, then all are attacked. The Coalition, led by Earth, declared war on the Romulans and this war lasted, through a number of skirmishes and battles, for six years. The last battle was at Cheron and the Romulans surrendered. the Treaty of Cheron established the buffer Neutral Zone and the two did not have any "official" contact until BoT more than a century later.

 

[Anwar]

Then why was it called the "Earth-Romulan War" and not the "Coalition-Romulan War"? Mighty egotistical for the humans to take all the credit.

Plus we saw that the Vulcan and Andorian space forces were much more advanced than Earth's, so how is it that Earth did most of the fighting when these guys could have done it on their own?

Like I said, we should forget it was called the "Earth-Romulan War" and just call it the "Romulan War", since it doesn't make sense anymore that Earth did all this stuff on its own. Just like we should forget Spock talking about "Atomic" (Not even Nuclear) weapons.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Then why was it called the "Earth-Romulan War" and not the "Coalition-Romulan War"? Mighty egotistical for the humans to take all the credit.

Plus we saw that the Vulcan and Andorian space forces were much more advanced than Earth's, so how is it that Earth did most of the fighting when these guys could have done it on their own?

Like I said, we should forget it was called the "Earth-Romulan War" and just call it the "Romulan War", since it doesn't make sense anymore that Earth did all this stuff on its own. Just like we should forget Spock talking about "Atomic" (Not even Nuclear) weapons.

I've always personally referred to it as "the Romulan Wars" myself. I'd like to believe that it started off just between Earth and Romulus--which would explain why it would have been known initially as the Earth-Romulan War--but the conflict later included Vulcan, Andoria, and Tellar towards the end...

And for why assume it was only four years? Why not only four years? For all we know, Earth may have been actually losing the war during the first three years of the conflict, but the inclusion of Vulcan, Andoria, etc., could have been what turned the tide...

Just my own take on it, though.

 

[Basill]

Then why was it called the "Earth-Romulan War" and not the "Coalition-Romulan War"? Mighty egotistical for the humans to take all the credit.

Plus we saw that the Vulcan and Andorian space forces were much more advanced than Earth's, so how is it that Earth did most of the fighting when these guys could have done it on their own?

Like I said, we should forget it was called the "Earth-Romulan War" and just call it the "Romulan War", since it doesn't make sense anymore that Earth did all this stuff on its own. Just like we should forget Spock talking about "Atomic" (Not even Nuclear) weapons.

I've always personally referred to it as "the Romulan Wars" myself. I'd like to believe that it started off just between Earth and Romulus--which would explain why it would have been known initially as the Earth-Romulan War--but the conflict later included Vulcan, Andoria, and Tellar towards the end...

And for why assume it was only four years? Why not only four years? For all we know, Earth may have been actually losing the war during the first three years of the conflict, but the inclusion of Vulcan, Andoria, etc., could have been what turned the tide...

Just my own take on it, though.

I like this take on things. (Xeris also had some interesting points about a "Coalition.")

I like the idea that Earth may have been one of the primary or even only participant other than the Romulans for at least a time until later in the conflict. Any coalition in its infancy would be struggling to find a place for all its members and Earth's conflict might have caused any other member to take pause until they were able to evaluate the situation better. That way, the "Earth-Romulan War" and the "Romulan Wars" can both have their proper place in historical context.

One thing regarding Vulcan involvement though... they were in the midst of a total restructuring of culture and military according to Enterprise. Not necessarily a state of chaos, but certainly a distraction during the period. This seems to be the very thing that freed Earth and allowed it to begin it's expansionist policies unhindered. Their pacifist ways were on the return and they may have chosen to opt out of any conflict with the Romulans on that basis, or at least for the majority of it.

As for the Andorians and Tellarites... well, they were always trying to find their "comfort zone" with all such involved parties.

 

[Saul]

I would say the direct conflict was between Earth and the Romulans, however Earth was supported by coalition allies, but not to the extent as a full scale declaration of war as there was between Earth and Romulans already. If Romulans didn't attack any of the other planets it might be that they'd rather keep their head low.

As for the Nukes, why not? There is nothing to say they weren't used. I'm sure Earth had lots left over after world war III and if the war dragged on and weapons supplies became low they could throw nukes at each other.

 

[Daedalus12]

Quite possible. Then again, the Italians were obsessed with speed (of their ships, aircraft and tanks alike) in WWII, and indeed attained superiority there , but their technology still proved inferior in virtually every respect.

In what sense? The Fiat G.55, Macchi 205 and the Reggiane 2005 has maximum speed ranging from 380 mph to 420 mph. This is clearly inferior to allies planes like the Hawker Tempest V, the Mustang, P-47N, and the F4U-4 (all are capable of 430+ mph).

In the case of ships the Vittorio Veneto is certainly no faster than the Iowas.

 

[137th Gebirg]

There may be several sources for this confusion. It's been a long time since I've looked through the "Spaceflight Chronology", but it's possible that the 4-year thing came from there. I also believe that FASA really made it popular in their RPG system. It's also conceivable that the 4-year duration may have been confused with a reference to the "Four Years War" (also a FASA construct, IIRC) regarding the final major war between the Federation and the Klingon empire that led to the eventual signing of an accord of peace that lasted into the 24th Century. This was, of course, established long before the events of Star Trek VI and are non-canonical.

 

[Nebusj]

Ah, so the "over" bit is where McCoy in the briefing room argues against everybody's eagerness to attack? TrekCore and many other sources indeed have it wrong, but Chakoteya's transcripts (http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/9.htm) feature the correct phrasing. My fault for not checking!

(Then again, when McCoy explodes about starting a fight for "...memories of a war over a century ago!", he might not be exact or knowledgeable with his figures. He is, after all, a doctor, not a re-enactor.)

No, the ``over a century ago'' comes right from Spock's exposition at the top of the episode, in which he explains the war for all the people in the audience who weren't there earlier. The closed captioning transcript omits the ``over'' for some reason (possibly to make the text better fit the screen -- closed captioning started out as trying to simply summarize text, and it's grown more complete as broadcasters learn that yes, people can keep up with all that much text), but Spock says the war was over a century ago. Given the context of the Science Officer briefing the crew, I think we have to assume he's exactly correct about it being not a day short of 101 years.

http://tos.trekcore.com/audiocaps/1x14/1x14-tos-03.mp3 contains the relevant audio segment.

What gives you the impression of Kirk not knowing much about the old war?

A valid point: it's just an impression. But I find it quite odd that Kirk would react with apparent surprise to the fact that the Romulan ships had birds on them (that's what his reaction looks like to me, rather than general surprise at Stiles for stating the factoid).

Well, it does all come down to impressions. I don't think he's reacting to anything besides Stiles's confidence that the symbols of The Enemy wouldn't have changed in a century of unknown developments and changes on their part. (Besides, Kirk did seem to acknowledge the bird-of-prey was a common symbol of the Romulans a century ago: he relies on Stiles's knowing it to conclude that Stiles has greater historical knowledge than the run-of-the-mill crewman.)

I mean, that's about the only thing known about the enemy, so it should count for all the more. Could we forget that the Nazis were the guys who sported swastikas, or that the Japs were the ones with the rising sun symbol?

On the other hand, a person woke up from a century's nap in 1942 would have no way of recognizing the Germans or the Japanese by these symbols, since the Germans hadn't used them in 1842 and the Japanese, well, who heard of the Japanese in 1842?

When that's how Kirk launches into this thing, and then relegates the knowledge stuff to Spock, never saying much himself, one may argue he's playing the usual strong and silent type, speaking little but saying a lot. But one may also argue he just plain lacks the knowledge to say anything about the subject. It's not as if he ever offers any true nuggets of information there, apart from his orders not to cross the Zone.

Compare this to other instances where Spock (or perhaps McCoy or Chekov) gives an introductory speech about the background of the week's adventure for the audience's benefit, and Kirk then fills in the details, seemingly showing off his expertise. Say, "Friday's Child" or "Trouble with Tribbles" or "A Private Little War". Kirk is really being exceptionally silent in "Balance of Terror".

On the other hand, ``The Trouble with Tribbles'' does follow roughly this pattern: Spock provides the broad-picture exposition and then Kirk prods both into explaining the precise details of the current situation. In ``Friday's Child'' Kirk lets McCoy provide the background material on the Capellans and then mentions they're out to sign a treaty to get Macguffinite shipments in. In ``A Private Little War'' Kirk asks one little question about flintlock development and sets off an anthropological debate on the bridge crew that Picard would envy.

In ``Balance of Terror'', Spock provides the background of who the Romulans are and why there might be some irredentist feelings involved, and then Kirk steps in to ratchet up the tension, informing the audience that the ship just might be destroyed and the crew killed this episode, and it's not a hoax! Not an imaginary story! For real!

Then why was it called the "Earth-Romulan War" and not the "Coalition-Romulan War"? Mighty egotistical for the humans to take all the credit.

You expect war names to make sense? Consider the Franco-Prussian War, where Prussia was aided by both the North German Confederation and miscellaneous South German states (and where Prussia merged into Germany as a result of it). Or the War of Jenkins' Ear. For that matter, the French and Indian Wars aren't so cleverly named either. (Oh, now, wouldn't that be an interesting twist? I mean, if Earth and the Romulans were allies against some other force, and part of the terms of the war's resolution was the dividing line between the two powers? I suppose that's hard to reconcile with Stiles's fury at the Romulans, though it could be managed.)

Anyway, assuming that Earth and Romulus were the leading powers behind the war, then Earth-Romulan War is a reasonably sensible if unimaginative name for it.

 

[blockaderunner]

Frankly, I think they should just cease trying pursue an Earth Romulan War epic on the big or small screen. Because, franky, Trek fans' expectations are so high and their versions already planned out in their heads that anything TPTB would put out is bound to piss someone off. What made Star Wars' Clone Wars work so well was that it was so wonderfully vague. All we knew about the CW was from the first Star Wars movie: Ben said that the Jedi fought in it, and that's it. No one knew whay it was fougfht or how clones fit into it. It was just a neato title that spiced up the young Star Wars universe. And even though the Lucas Raped My Childhood crowd had their issues (and has issues), the sensible rest of us were pleasntly surprised. It's best to leave that little piece of Trek history to our imaginations. Now a B5 Telepath War, on the on the other hand....