Considering Nemesis, along with Star Trek: Enterprise, killed the franchise I would say that Nemesis did nothing but harm. No good at all.
Why Star Trek Nemesis failed to reach the heights of TWOK
- Thread starter The Overlord
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Considering Nemesis, along with Star Trek: Enterprise, killed the franchise I would say that Nemesis did nothing but harm. No good at all.
I don't think it was the right move to replicate The Wrath of Khan for the TNG cast. They are very different from the TOS cast obviously and have a different dynamic with each other. It was an interesting idea to give them their own version of that movie but under a director who didn't understand Star Trek or know how to handle the actors properly it wasn't going to work. Nick Meyer at least did his homework and became a fan while doing that homework and was able to work with the actors. Baird seemed to fail at this.
AS with TFF, per say?
Look at it this way, even with FC "most" fans were still hungering for the ole' days with the TOS crew. IMO all the TNG movies were an excellent addition to the Star Trek mythos. It is just so sad that these "most" fans each wanted different directions for these films because of being spoiled with what was being reported on the "net"...
AS with TFF, per say?
Look at it this way, even with FC "most" fans were still hungering for the ole' days with the TOS crew. IMO all the TNG movies were an excellent addition to the Star Trek mythos. It is just so sad that these "most" fans each wanted different directions for these films because of being spoiled with what was being reported on the "net"...
But with The Final Frontier it didn't look like the actors "phoned in" the effort. For all the flaws Shatner had as a director, the actors turned in solid performances. Even in Insurrection, which everyone here knows I have issues with, the actors seem to embrace their parts in the film and it shows. Making it tolerable to watch even if the plot is "swiss-cheese" like.
For me, Nemesis makes the worst mistake a sci-fi film can make... it's dull with no soul. Star Trek: The Motion Picture got away with being slow because it was the first new live-action Trek in a decade. Nemesis didn't have the luxury because of how much Trek already existed, including a competing first run TV series.
But everyone has their own likes and dislikes... hell I count The Omega Glory and The Royale among my favorite Star Trek episodes.
AS with TFF, per say?
Look at it this way, even with FC "most" fans were still hungering for the ole' days with the TOS crew. IMO all the TNG movies were an excellent addition to the Star Trek mythos. It is just so sad that these "most" fans each wanted different directions for these films because of being spoiled with what was being reported on the "net"...
But with The Final Frontier it didn't look like the actors "phoned in" the effort. For all the flaws Shatner had as a director, the actors turned in solid performances. Even in Insurrection, which everyone here knows I have issues with, the actors seem to embrace their parts in the film and it shows. Making it tolerable to watch even if the plot is "swiss-cheese" like.
For me, Nemesis makes the worst mistake a sci-fi film can make... it's dull with no soul. Star Trek: The Motion Picture got away with being slow because it was the first new live-action Trek in a decade. Nemesis didn't have the luxury because of how much Trek already existed, including a competing first run TV series.
But everyone has their own likes and dislikes... hell I count The Omega Glory and The Royale among my favorite Star Trek episodes.
I don't know...from reviews I saw I think others saw it as I did, the way Shatner produced/wrote/directed such a poor product seemed to suck the life out of already aging actors. I didn't see any of that with Nemesis. I saw a lot of familiar actors who seemed to be enjoying what they do both in the company of good friends (which the TOS actors weren't) and in the performances.
RAMA
Nemesis is one of those movies that I've pretty turned a complete 180 on. I might indeed have been on the "hate bandwagon" when it first came out, but on repeated viewings, I actually find myself liking it. I dunno, I think at some point I stopped comparing it to stuff that came before.
Agreed, after viewing it more and more, it seems like a good start to a big sendoff. Too bad Paramount wanted a Star wars replacement instead.
Sir Patrick should have starred as Picard and Shinzon (at the same age as Picard, though scarred), it would have made the character more interesting and could have built up greater tension between them.
The death at the end could have been Picard sacrificing himself to stop Shinzon, save his crew, his ship and Earth. Riker then assumes command of the Enterprise instead of the Titan. Otherwise, if Data was the one to be killed off, make it so that he stayed dead, B-4 is scrapped and the memory download did nothing.
Had Sir Patrick said no, then they could have brought back Sela, so that the entire first season cast was reunited for the last film.
The death at the end could have been Picard sacrificing himself to stop Shinzon, save his crew, his ship and Earth. Riker then assumes command of the Enterprise instead of the Titan. Otherwise, if Data was the one to be killed off, make it so that he stayed dead, B-4 is scrapped and the memory download did nothing.
Had Sir Patrick said no, then they could have brought back Sela, so that the entire first season cast was reunited for the last film.
I don't really see that. Heck, even Nichelle Nichols, one of the most vocal detractors of Shatner, says in her book that he was an excellent director and that Shatner became one of the family during that movie. She attributes it to the fact that Shatner had always been fighting to be in control, even back to the days of the TV series. But on TFF, with his position as the head honcho firmly cemented, he relaxed and became part of the group. Ironically, it apparently took making him the boss to get him to be part of the team, at least in the perception of the supporting cast.
Well, I don't know what you mean by "a Star Wars replacement," but I tend to view it as one of the more fun Trek movies these days. A lot of the stuff I used to rag on it about, I don't anymore.
I wasn't stating that NEMESIS was the Wars wannabe...under my own assumption and views is that "Paramount" execs and such NEVER placed high hopes on the franchise.
Until it bombed, thanks to quite a few on this board even, that they decided to make 2009.
I think I see the reason a bit differently than focusing on Shinzon. I thought he wasn't as solid as Khan, too, but the reasons go beyond simply the fact that we were familiar with Khan. I think the character was very well played and extremely well-written. Shinzon was neither of these things--he felt very two-dimensional.
One of the biggest strengths of both TOS and TNG was the dynamic created by the characters working together. Although one TOS movie may be better or worse than the next, I think every single one of them preserved that amazing chemistry of characters. The TNG movies did not do this as well--the writers attempted to focus entirely on Data and Picard, but, more than that, the chemistry played a distant second to complicated and often confusing plot lines (First Contact excepted, I think). As a result, fans felt very left out, I think, whereas I think that chemistry helped create new TOS fans.
If Nemesis was going to be the last movie in the TNG, moments of chemistry were filmed and almost whole-sale cut out of the film. Wesley Crusher at the wedding, the appearance of Spot the cat, etc.--all of that seems very small, but I think those kinds of things are far more significant than it may immediately appear. Nemesis was a poor ending to an excellent TV and movie series, and it is ironic because the original TV program was enjoyed by so many and is remembered so fondly.
One of the biggest strengths of both TOS and TNG was the dynamic created by the characters working together. Although one TOS movie may be better or worse than the next, I think every single one of them preserved that amazing chemistry of characters. The TNG movies did not do this as well--the writers attempted to focus entirely on Data and Picard, but, more than that, the chemistry played a distant second to complicated and often confusing plot lines (First Contact excepted, I think). As a result, fans felt very left out, I think, whereas I think that chemistry helped create new TOS fans.
If Nemesis was going to be the last movie in the TNG, moments of chemistry were filmed and almost whole-sale cut out of the film. Wesley Crusher at the wedding, the appearance of Spot the cat, etc.--all of that seems very small, but I think those kinds of things are far more significant than it may immediately appear. Nemesis was a poor ending to an excellent TV and movie series, and it is ironic because the original TV program was enjoyed by so many and is remembered so fondly.
To be fair, there was a major upheaval at Paramount in 2006 and almost everyone associated with Trek prior to that was gone. New Powers That Be had arrived, and an early proposal for Star Trek XI that would have continued where ENT left off (or would have covered the Romulan Wars) was promptly shelved.
The script you mention is, I believe, the one that Rick Berman had been developing during his last couple of years at Paramount. From the impression I got, though, I'm not sure that there was ever any serious consideration given to producing it. Rather, at the time, it felt more like they were just doing something for the sake of doing it while Paramount waited for Berman's contract to run out. I can't say for sure, of course, but it seemed like as soon as his contract was up was when J.J. Abrams was brought in. Perhaps there was something in Berman's contract that prohibited Paramount from moving forward with another Trek movie without him?
It was pretty much just a regime change at Paramount, and Berman was considered part of the old regime. Trek's TV and movie divisions went their separate ways under new owners in 2006 and that pretty much was the end of the "Berman era" (or at least, it was the final nail in the coffin after ENT's cancellation).
As far as the original proposal for Star Trek XI--"Star Trek: The Beginning"--Berman's role with that was really limited to that it was pitched during his tenure at Paramount, but he wasn't really involved creatively with it, IIRC. The project advanced far enough that a script was written, but the whole thing was shelved when the new regime at Paramount wanted to go in a different direction or just wanted to start with a clean slate as far as writers and producers were concerned, IMO.
That would have been a lot more interesting.
I remember watching Nemesis and thinking how tired the primary cast looked and wondering why so much of what was possibly the last outing for them ended up being mindless space battles. Others have covered the nonsense plot and cringeworthy moments without my repeating them.
I've seen all the Trek films in the theatre multiple times with this being the only exception; I actually would have preferred to rent this one and saved a bit of cash.
As much as TFF joins the TNG films as being the only Trek movies I'm happy to leave out of my collection or watch again, I did enjoy it and agree that the cast had good chemistry. It was fun for what it was. Nemesis was very much lacking in "fun," which is pretty sad given it was the last TNG film.
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