Why Section 31 goes into hiding

[XCV330]

For a LONG time no one in the U.S. outside of those who were a part of or interacted with - new of the NSA.

My point: There's no evidence "Section 31" ever really surfaced. Those who need to know, know; and afterwards were able to keep the secret. We the audience know BECAUSE "Section 31" is a part of the story. We (the audience) DON'T know who in The Federation knowss of Section 31 beyond the characters the story involves.

Fair enough. but so far even Amanda knows about Section 31. Maybe Sarek brings his work home with him. Or maybe she had an intel background before she married him. But the only people so far who don't seem to know what Section 31 is Burnham's fellow convicts, and they might have just not recognized the black badges.

 

[Tuskin38]

They go underground because the plot demands it. And it will likely never be shown because as far as this iteration of Trek is concerned, Section 31 isn't the perhaps-paranoid ramblings of Sloan or an organisation that only exists in shadows, but the legitimate intelligence branch of Starfleet.

It wasn't ramblings in DS9 either since Sisko got a comment from Starfleet Command that basically confirmed its existence.

Plus Admiral Ross.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It wasn't ramblings in DS9 either since Sisko got a comment from Starfleet Command that basically confirmed its existence.

Plus Admiral Ross.

If the source believes Sloan, the source confirms there's more to Section 31 than Sloan.

While I'm okay with the Into Darkness/Disco version of 31 as this big organisation with unlimited resources, I did like the idea that it might have been one guy's insane headgame with all of Starfleet.

 

[Noname Given]

Fair enough. but so far even Amanda knows about Section 31. Maybe Sarek brings his work home with him. Or maybe she had an intel background before she married him. But the only people so far who don't seem to know what Section 31 is Burnham's fellow convicts, and they might have just not recognized the black badges.

Amanda was able to steal medical records about Spock from a secure location; and since I have to believe Section 31 was involved in a number of operations during the war; and Starfleet was also using Sarek in various capacities as well; it's not a stretch to think Sarek is aware of Section 31; and (one way or another) Amanda knows what Sarek knows.

 

[Tuskin38]

There's more evidence in DS9 that S31 is real, than there is against it.
Plus comments from people on the DS9 Production who actually created the agency.

 

[The Wormhole]

I figure when Georgiou takes over Section 31 (which they seem to be building to) she decides to recede into the shadows and turn the organization into top secret and hidden.

 

[Yistaan]

For a LONG time no one in the U.S. outside of those who were a part of or interacted with - new of the NSA.

My point: There's no evidence "Section 31" ever really surfaced. Those who need to know, know; and afterwards were able to keep the secret. We the audience know BECAUSE "Section 31" is a part of the story. We (the audience) DON'T know who in The Federation knowss of Section 31 beyond the characters the story involves.

This analogy is different for the fact that once the NSA was found out, they started coming out and justifying themselves. President Bush even gave a speech acknowledging NSA and defending their actions. NSA was shown to be answerable to the US government and eventually we see now on the news their phone surveillance system has been disbanded.

By Odo's own words, no such thing happened with Section 31. Once the DS9 crew started sounding the alarm, the Federation was caught off guard. The Federation president didn't call S31 to account for genocide. The Federation said they didn't know what was going on. Bashir and Sisko said that alerting Starfleet Intelligence would send S31 even deeper into hiding. That doesn't sound like an agency answerable to the Federation for me.

The biggest proof that S31 isn't answerable to the Federation is Sloan himself. Sisko and Bashir were never court martialed for the kidnapping, mind-ripping of Sloan and driving him to suicide. That shows that Section 31 was not officially acknowledged by Starfleet Command at the time.

 

[The Wormhole]

Sisko and Bashir were never court martialed for the kidnapping, mind-ripping of Sloan and driving him to suicide.

Sisko wasn't involved in that. That was Bashir and O'Brien working on their own.

 

[Yistaan]

Sisko wasn't involved in that. That was Bashir and O'Brien working on their own.

BASHIR: Remember these? Romulan mind probes. They're not the most pleasant of devices, but they're very efficient.
SLOAN: They're also illegal in the Federation.
BASHIR: Oh, I hope you can appreciate the irony of that statement.
SLOAN: I'm telling you I don't know anything about the cure.
BASHIR: Then I won't find anything, will I?
SLOAN: If Sisko finds out what you're doing
O'BRIEN: The Captain already knows what we're doing. And he's given us his full support.

Here's another difference showing the status of S31 in 23rd and 24th centuries. Tyler, Leland and other operatives are protected, by order of Admiral Cornwall herself, and it's made clear Pike would face consequences if he ripped Tyler and/or Leland a new one solely on them following shady S31 duties. This status even got to Tyler's head considering how cocky he's been acting in Season 2.

O'Brien and Bashir capture Sloan, mind-rip him with Romulan torture devices, all with Sisko's approval, and it ends with his suicide. They suffer no consequences from the Federation Council or Starfleet Command.

 

[Noname Given]

This analogy is different for the fact that once the NSA was found out, they started coming out and justifying themselves. President Bush even gave a speech acknowledging NSA and defending their actions. NSA was shown to be answerable to the US government and eventually we see now on the news their phone surveillance system has been disbanded.

By Odo's own words, no such thing happened with Section 31. Once the DS9 crew started sounding the alarm, the Federation was caught off guard. The Federation president didn't call S31 to account for genocide. The Federation said they didn't know what was going on. Bashir and Sisko said that alerting Starfleet Intelligence would send S31 even deeper into hiding. That doesn't sound like an agency answerable to the Federation for me.

The biggest proof that S31 isn't answerable to the Federation is Sloan himself. Sisko and Bashir were never court martialed for the kidnapping, mind-ripping of Sloan and driving him to suicide. That shows that Section 31 was not officially acknowledged by Starfleet Command at the time.

A few people on DS9 found out. I don't recall Sisko or Bashir "broadcasting to the Universe" afterwards - they went THROUGH CHANNELS - and nothing further really happened...more evidence that Section 31 is known at the very upper echelons of Starfleet Command, Starfleet Intelligence, and the Federation Council <--- And they see no reason to compromise Section 31 at a time they'll be needed against the Dominion (this WAS DS9 Season 6 where there was a Fed/Dominion War on.)

 

[Yistaan]

A few people on DS9 found out. I don't recall Sisko or Bashir "broadcasting to the Universe" afterwards - they went THROUGH CHANNELS - and nothing further really happened...more evidence that Section 31 is known at the very upper echelons of Starfleet Command, Starfleet Intelligence, and the Federation Council <--- And they see no reason to compromise Section 31 at a time they'll be needed against the Dominion (this WAS DS9 Season 6 where there was a Fed/Dominion War on.)

That still doesn't explain why Bashir, O'Brien and Sisko weren't taken to task for Sloan's death. To use your example, this would be like a military officer escaping court martial for kidnapping and torturing an NSA or Seal Team 6 agent.

At the very least, S31 people became a lot more expendable in the 24th century than they were in the 23rd.

It still doesn't explain why Sloan uses "was" and "original" Starfleet charter when referring to Section 31's status, and not use the present tense.

Compare how Tyler and Leland talk, who still try to maintain some semblance of legality (note the fear in Leland about it being revealed he killed Burnham's parents), versus--

SLOAN: Hello, Chief. How's the family? Everyone okay at home?
O'BRIEN: What's that supposed to mean?
SLOAN: Nothing. I'd just hate to see anything happen to them.
BASHIR: Don't listen to him, Chief. He's just playing games with you.
SLOAN: That's easy for him to say. He doesn't have a wife and children to worry about. Trust me, Chief, if something were to happen to me
BASHIR: What? They'll be killed? I'm disappointed in you, Sloan. You don't usually wield such a blunt instrument.

Sloan shows no fear in threatening to kill O'Brien's family. Leland shows fear in being exposed for killing Burnham's. Simplest answer is often best--S31 is answerable to Federation in 23rd, no longer in 24th.

 

[Noname Given]

That still doesn't explain why Bashir, O'Brien and Sisko weren't taken to task for Sloan's death. To use your example, this would be like a military officer escaping court martial for kidnapping and torturing an NSA or Seal Team 6 agent.

^^^
Of course it does. IF Starfleet court martial/prosecute them; there's MORE of a chance Section 31 info will get out among a wider group of people. It's probably an IMF situation (yes, I know Million Impossible is a fantasy too, but...) in that - once Sloan was compromised and killed, he was effectively 'disavowed' - thus no reason to prosecute as teh risk outweighs the 'benefit'.

 

[Yistaan]

^^^
Of course it does. IF Starfleet court martial/prosecute them; there's MORE of a chance Section 31 info will get out among a wider group of people. It's probably an IMF situation (yes, I know Million Impossible is a fantasy too, but...) in that - once Sloan was compromised and killed, he was effectively 'disavowed' - thus no reason to prosecute as teh risk outweighs the 'benefit'.

Section 31 info is already out. The Cardassians will talk about how the Founders had a disease and were mysteriously cured. Laas is going to come crawling back to either Odo or the Federation for a cure and he'll tell the world. Is Section 31 going to kill all of them too?

Bashir hates Section 31 and wants to expose them. He got halted for a while to cure Odo, but nothing's stopping him from publishing a column after the Dominion war is over.

Sisko asked Odo not to take matters into his own hands, but once the cure was given and the war is over, those promises become void.

To be fair, it's possible Bashir and O'Brien were indeed court martialed after the show. With a standing arrest order for Sisko whenever he returns from the Prophets.

 

[Noname Given]

Section 31 info is already out. The Cardassians will talk about how the Founders had a disease and were mysteriously cured. Laas is going to come crawling back to either Odo or the Federation for a cure and he'll tell the world. Is Section 31 going to kill all of them too?

Bashir hates Section 31 and wants to expose them. He got halted for a while to cure Odo, but nothing's stopping him from publishing a column after the Dominion war is over.

Sisko asked Odo not to take matters into his own hands, but once the cure was given and the war is over, those promises become void.

To be fair, it's possible Bashir and O'Brien were indeed court martialed after the show. With a standing arrest order for Sisko whenever he returns from the Prophets.

^^^^
Until we see this played out on screen - it's all your fanon. Nothing wrong with that but:
- So the Founders got a cure. Why would that 'out' Section 31 to anyone?

- Yes, many of the DS9 crew WANT to out Section 31. Thankfully though NONE of them seem to havve the 'Picard' tendency to do it WITHOUT caring for the ultimate consequences it could have. Bashir could have done it after teh whole Admiral Ross/Romulan situation but he didn't. Again, until we see/hear something from a canon show (and who knows maybe teh Picard show will throw some DS9 'post war' history our way; but until then we can't sy for sure what Bashir or the other did. For all we knoiw, they all died 'mysterious' deaths. ;0

 

[Yistaan]

For all we knoiw, they all died 'mysterious' deaths. ;0

In a throwaway line mentioned by Patrick Stewart in the first episode of the Picard show.

What isn't fanon is that Sloan outright uses the past tense and the word "original" when discussing Section 31's connection to Starfleet. So I'll take the word from Sloan himself.

SLOAN: We don't submit reports or ask for approval for specific operations, if that's what you mean. We're an autonomous department.
BASHIR: Authorised by whom?
SLOAN: Section thirty one was part of the original Starfleet charter.

(Why go through the trouble of using these words? Why not just say "Section 31 is part of the Starfleet charter" if what you say is true?)

BASHIR: But that was two hundred years ago. Are you telling me you've been working on your own ever since? Without specific orders? Accountable to nobody but yourselves?

(note how Bashir accurately pinpoints 200 years ago to Archer's time, as confirmed on Enterprise, before even the Federation existed).

SLOAN: You make it sound so ominous. (note Sloan doesn't deny he is accountable to no one, not even the Federation).
BASHIR: Isn't it? Because if what you say to me is true, you function as judge, jury and executioner, and I think that's too much power for anyone.
SLOAN: I admit it takes exceptional people to do what we do. People who can sublimate their own ambitions to the best interests of the Federation. People like you.

Canon, not fanon--Sloan uses past tense in discussing Section 31's connection to Starfleet.

The bolds are just for emphasis, I still feel that Sloan's conscious and purposeful use of past tense has not been properly addressed, which is very relevant to people siding with an official tie between S31 and the Federation in the 24th century.

I feel the past tense confirms the official ties between Fed and S31 have long since passed.

 

[Cyrus]

Here is what Alex Kurtman said:

If you know Section 31, you know that by the time Deep Space Nine comes around they’ve gone underground and they are this mysterious organization—but there’s nothing official about it. In the promos [for season 2] that you’ve seen so far, Section 31 has a badge. There’s a ship and all these different things, so the question is: how do they get from here to there? What happened in that window of time between those two pivot points in Section 31’s evolution?

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/...le-yeoh-get-started-after-discovery-season-3/

 

[Yistaan]

Here is what Alex Kurtman said:


https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/...le-yeoh-get-started-after-discovery-season-3/

So even Alex Kurtzman, the showrunner of Star Trek Discovery himself, agrees with me that Section 31 is unofficial and not sanctioned by the Federation by the 24th century.

I wish I had found that link myself and saved myself a lot of energy (and accusations that the 24th century nonofficial status is somehow "fanon"). Thanks!

 

[Noname Given]

So even Alex Kurtzman, the showrunner of Star Trek Discovery himself, agrees with me that Section 31 is unofficial and not sanctioned by the Federation by the 24th century.

I wish I had found that link myself and saved myself a lot of energy (and accusations that the 24th century nonofficial status is somehow "fanon"). Thanks!

Um, did Kurtzman produce or write anything for DS9? No.

So his conjecture is just another fan conjecture UNTIL he shows something that contradicts what the DS9 writing staff had Sloan state on the screen.

 

[Yistaan]

Um, did Kurtzman produce or write anything for DS9? No.

So his conjecture is just another fan conjecture UNTIL he shows something that contradicts what the DS9 writing staff had Sloan state on the screen.

Did you ever address that I pointed out Sloan himself used the past tense in referring to Section 31's connection with the original Starfleet charter. As in Sloan outright saying these connections are no longer current?

No offense, but the insistence I'm seeing that Sloan was speaking in the present tense despite using "was" and "original" seems like the actual fanon to me.

What isn't fanon is that Sloan outright uses the past tense and the word "original" when discussing Section 31's connection to Starfleet. So I'll take the word from Sloan himself.

SLOAN: We don't submit reports or ask for approval for specific operations, if that's what you mean. We're an autonomous department.
BASHIR: Authorised by whom?
SLOAN: Section thirty one was part of the original Starfleet charter.

(Why go through the trouble of using these words? Why not just say "Section 31 is part of the Starfleet charter" if what you say is true?)

BASHIR: But that was two hundred years ago. Are you telling me you've been working on your own ever since? Without specific orders? Accountable to nobody but yourselves?

(note how Bashir accurately pinpoints 200 years ago to Archer's time, as confirmed on Enterprise, before even the Federation existed).

SLOAN: You make it sound so ominous. (note Sloan doesn't deny he is accountable to no one, not even the Federation).
BASHIR: Isn't it? Because if what you say to me is true, you function as judge, jury and executioner, and I think that's too much power for anyone.
SLOAN: I admit it takes exceptional people to do what we do. People who can sublimate their own ambitions to the best interests of the Federation. People like you.

Canon, not fanon--Sloan uses past tense in discussing Section 31's connection to Starfleet.

The bolds are just for emphasis, I still feel that Sloan's conscious and purposeful use of past tense has not been properly addressed, which is very relevant to people siding with an official tie between S31 and the Federation in the 24th century.

I feel the past tense confirms the official ties between Fed and S31 have long since passed.

 

[Noname Given]

Probably because the ORIGINAL Starfleet Charter was pre-Federation. That said, Sloan also sates:

SLOAN: Let's just say I belong to another branch of Starfleet Intelligence. Our official designation is Section thirty one.
^^^
Which is the CURRENT Federation Starfleet.

And before you gop claiming that somehow the currnt Federation Starfleet must not condone or know about current version of Section 31 or condone it, there's the DS9 eopisodes:

"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges"

Where Admiral Ross is working directly with Sloan and they are BOTH using Bashir to assist (unknowingly until the end) with the elevation of a pro-Federation Romulan to a council, and the ultimate elimination of an anti-Federation Romulan which they believe will be executed as a traitor/collaborator.

and

"Extreme Measures"

Where Bashir discovers Section 31's plans for Founder Genocide, and that he was an unwitting part if it and 73 people must have been involved - and then p[roceeds to luyre Slaon to Ds9 with news that he has a cure...

But my point? Ds9 cleartly shows that Section 31 is indeed an arm of the current Federation Starfleet; and it's actions are known and supported BY high ranking members of Starfleet.

There's nothing 'Rogue' about it.