Why not make Chakotay hispanic

[Timewalker]

Do you think Irish and Irish Americans feel disrespected by Janeway's memories and background references?

Did the writers make their Irish characters yodel or sing French songs or claim beliefs and traditions that are obviously not Irish?

If you take the Navajo and the Mayans, you have two very different cultures. Add in a mix of South American traditions (there are probably hundreds, if not thousands), and you get a mess that is respectful of no one.

 

[Refuge]

Did the writers make their Irish characters yodel or sing French songs or claim beliefs and traditions that are obviously not Irish?

If you take the Navajo and the Mayans, you have two very different cultures. Add in a mix of South American traditions (there are probably hundreds, if not thousands), and you get a mess that is respectful of no one.

Irish depictions do have a certain stereotypical feel about them. Ever watch the Fair Haven episodes?

 

[Timewalker]

Irish depictions do have a certain stereotypical feel about them. Ever watch the Fair Haven episodes?

Yes, of course I've seen the Fair Haven episodes. Yes, it was stereotypical, but I think it was probably less offensive than the TNG episode that depicted everybody as oversexed, unintelligent drunks. At least Janeway modified Michael Sullivan so he was educated.

Did Fair Haven mix up characteristics and traits and beliefs and customs of different regions of Ireland? Honest question, because I don't know enough about Irish history or culture to know.

But that's not the point of this thread. It's so obvious to anyone who knows anything about native North American history and traditions that Chakotay's background and "traditions" are a mixed-up mess.

Why not just pick a tribe, research it, and go with it? Ben Bova did that when he created the character of Jamie Waterman in his Mars novel - Jamie is a geologist who is part of the first manned Mars mission. The spirituality, language, and traditions associated with that character are Navajo, not a mix of a dozen different native North American peoples.

 

[Prax]

Yes, of course I've seen the Fair Haven episodes. Yes, it was stereotypical, but I think it was probably less offensive than the TNG episode that depicted everybody as oversexed, unintelligent drunks. At least Janeway modified Michael Sullivan so he was educated.

Did Fair Haven mix up characteristics and traits and beliefs and customs of different regions of Ireland? Honest question, because I don't know enough about Irish history or culture to know.

But that's not the point of this thread. It's so obvious to anyone who knows anything about native North American history and traditions that Chakotay's background and "traditions" are a mixed-up mess.

Why not just pick a tribe, research it, and go with it? Ben Bova did that when he created the character of Jamie Waterman in his Mars novel - Jamie is a geologist who is part of the first manned Mars mission. The spirituality, language, and traditions associated with that character are Navajo, not a mix of a dozen different native North American peoples.

Let's stick to just being offended for ourselves and not others. It's fascinating how typical trekkie cynicism can take a hypothetical, potential 3rd party grievance to an assumed actual factual "problem" so quickly. There is no problem unless you make it one, or are vigorously looking for one. He's a fictional character from an off world colony in the future. He didn't portray a North American Indian.

We don't need to dig into every nook and cranny searching for injustices just to be hypercritical towards a show. It's beyond ridiculous, especially considering the show ended almost 20 years ago.

I've never heard actual complaints about this, such as in reviews, only minor comments about Chakotay's real world tribe being hard to pin down. Only in a Star Trek forum could something like this be turned into an impassioned indictment.

 

[Timewalker]

Oh, FFS. My annoyance with this is due to my having taken cultural anthropology courses pertaining to the native North Americans. So the sloppy "effort" put into building Chakotay's character sticks out like the proverbial sore thumb to me.

And the fact that some native fans are also annoyed by this is merely something I read, not something that makes me lose sleep.

 

[Refuge]

Let's stick to just being offended for ourselves and not others. It's fascinating how typical trekkie cynicism can take a hypothetical, potential 3rd party grievance to an assumed actual factual "problem" so quickly. There is no problem unless you make it one, or are vigorously looking for one. He's a fictional character from an off world colony in the future. He didn't portray a North American Indian.

We don't need to dig into every nook and cranny searching for injustices just to be hypercritical towards a show. It's beyond ridiculous, especially considering the show ended almost 20 years ago.

I've never heard actual complaints about this, such as in reviews, only minor comments about Chakotay's real world tribe being hard to pin down. Only in a Star Trek forum could something like this be turned into an impassioned indictment.

"He's a fictional character from an off world colony in the future. He didn't portray a North American Indian."

That was how I saw and see it. IF he had been assigned Hispanic or Native American then delving into his representation of one region or tribe would then be something those invested in historical reality might have issue with, but he purposely wasn't. I don't get offended by his tattoo because he's not fully representing all cultural aspects of its meaning. The story of it has its own meaning in the character of Chakotay. (NOW if those who were also born on the same Federation Colony thought Chakotay was a load of bollocks - so be it. )

I guess in a way the answer to the thread topic is obvious. Chakotay was not made 'Hispanic' or 'Native American' because he was supposed to be from a future and drawing upon a mix of traditions spared the creators from having to pin down one.

 

[Brennyren]

What Chakotay was, as a Native American, was a jumble of Hollywood cliches. It didn't help that Voyager's Native American "expert," Jamake Highwater, was a total fraud -- and had been exposed as one as early as 1984. Link His knowledge of Native Americans came from movies and books.

Someone did not do their due diligence when they hired this con man.

Now I think of it, maybe it would have been better to present Chakotay as Latino, or at least a Latino/NA mix. Beltran probably knew enough of that aspect of his cultural heritage to call b.s. if anyone tried to fake their way through on it.

 

[Timewalker]

"He's a fictional character from an off world colony in the future. He didn't portray a North American Indian."

That was how I saw and see it. IF he had been assigned Hispanic or Native American then delving into his representation of one region or tribe would then be something those invested in historical reality might have issue with, but he purposely wasn't. I don't get offended by his tattoo because he's not fully representing all cultural aspects of its meaning. The story of it has its own meaning in the character of Chakotay. (NOW if those who were also born on the same Federation Colony thought Chakotay was a load of bollocks - so be it. )

I guess in a way the answer to the thread topic is obvious. Chakotay was not made 'Hispanic' or 'Native American' because he was supposed to be from a future and drawing upon a mix of traditions spared the creators from having to pin down one.

He was assigned native American heritage. From Earth. It was a mix of North and South American stuff, with a bunch of nonsense thrown in.

His tattoo looks stupid to me, but it's not the part about this that annoys me.

 

[Jayson1]

I just think they wanted a Indian character and they liked the actor. They kind of set it up with the TNG episode were they visited a Indian colony and I think it was implied he was the instructor that Ro had served under.

I think I recall them even talking about this back when the show started. They didn't want to get to specific so as not to favor one tribe or culture over another and also because they knew they didn't know enough about the cultures to really deal with it on that level or deal with anything that might offend people in terms of how they wrote the character.

It's not really all that different than with most Trek characters. Nobody is Jewish, American or Christian or Muslim or anything really. Nobody has any cultural pride that often beyond being a "evolved human." Heck they don't even call themselves aithest even though it feels like most of them most likely are. Still it's better than how some of the aliens get treated. Imagine all those Vulcans going to one and only barber who always does the bowl on the head look. Then you got the aliens who all wear the same outfits and some aliens only eat one kind of food. If your a developed alien culture you might get 4 or 5 things you can eat.

Jason

 

[Brennyren]

They didn't want to get to specific so as not to favor one tribe or culture over another and also because they knew they didn't know enough about the cultures to really deal with it on that level or deal with anything that might offend people in terms of how they wrote the character.

They did go into specifics, with such things as the medicine wheel, and the vision quest, and the spirit animals, the ritual on the anniversary of Kolopak's death, the whole "Rubber Tree People" encounter, and of course the tattoo. The problem was, the specifics they used either didn't go together, or were made up out of whole cloth. Example: Chakotay and Kolopak are clearly visiting a jungle region in the flashback of "Tattoo," but no Central American NA's had medicine wheels or spirit animals.

They didn't want to favor a specific culture? Well, they had no problem with making Sisko an African American, as opposed to his being from any other region of the world where brown-skinned people live. They made Picard French (albeit with an English accent!), and Scotty Scottish, and O'Brien Irish, and Reed British, rather than generic Europeans. Heck, Kirk was Iowan, McCoy and Tucker were Southerners, and Riker was Alaskan; they weren't even generic Americans, much less generic white people.

They didn't know enough about the cultures? There were any number of real experts they could have learned from. They did know enough to know that they should hire someone; they just didn't check his background.

I'm actually kind of fond of Chakotay; Beltran brought a nice warmth to the character. But these are excuses, and excuses for what was, at base, simply shoddy work.

 

[Timewalker]

I just think they wanted a Indian character and they liked the actor. They kind of set it up with the TNG episode were they visited a Indian colony and I think it was implied he was the instructor that Ro had served under.

I think I recall them even talking about this back when the show started. They didn't want to get to specific so as not to favor one tribe or culture over another and also because they knew they didn't know enough about the cultures to really deal with it on that level or deal with anything that might offend people in terms of how they wrote the character.

That's why research departments exist.

It's not really all that different than with most Trek characters. Nobody is Jewish, American or Christian or Muslim or anything really.

I had no idea that "American" is a religion. It makes sense, though, given the preponderance of flag worship and quoting of the scriptures found in their constitution, regardless of whether it makes sense in this modern age.

You are incorrect, however. In TOS, both Uhura and McCoy have dialogue that indicates that they are Christian. We know that both Spock and Sarek observe some sort of Vulcan traditions that might be considered religious, or at least spiritual.

Nobody has any cultural pride that often beyond being a "evolved human." Heck they don't even call themselves aithest even though it feels like most of them most likely are. Still it's better than how some of the aliens get treated. Imagine all those Vulcans going to one and only barber who always does the bowl on the head look. Then you got the aliens who all wear the same outfits and some aliens only eat one kind of food. If your a developed alien culture you might get 4 or 5 things you can eat.

Worf seems in touch with his Klingon culture. So does B'Elanna, at least a little (she does own a bat'leth and speaks Klingon).

This "one hairstyle for all" is Hollywood short-cutting. If they have a standard look, they don't have to spend time and money coming up with variations, and they assume the audience is so stupid that we couldn't figure out that somebody is Vulcan if they have a slightly different hairstyle.

 

[Jayson1]

They did go into specifics, with such things as the medicine wheel, and the vision quest, and the spirit animals, the ritual on the anniversary of Kolopak's death, the whole "Rubber Tree People" encounter, and of course the tattoo. The problem was, the specifics they used either didn't go together, or were made up out of whole cloth. Example: Chakotay and Kolopak are clearly visiting a jungle region in the flashback of "Tattoo," but no Central American NA's had medicine wheels or spirit animals.

They didn't want to favor a specific culture? Well, they had no problem with making Sisko an African American, as opposed to his being from any other region of the world where brown-skinned people live. They made Picard French (albeit with an English accent!), and Scotty Scottish, and O'Brien Irish, and Reed British, rather than generic Europeans. Heck, Kirk was Iowan, McCoy and Tucker were Southerners, and Riker was Alaskan; they weren't even generic Americans, much less generic white people.

They didn't know enough about the cultures? There were any number of real experts they could have learned from. They did know enough to know that they should hire someone; they just didn't check his background.

I'm actually kind of fond of Chakotay; Beltran brought a nice warmth to the character. But these are excuses, and excuses for what was, at base, simply shoddy work.

These things don't feel specific to me but more like generic short descriptions of each person's culture. The things they did with Chakotay were designed to be vague. They are supose to be just indian enough to get home the point he is indian. Kind of like with Trip. Actually he was supose to be from Florida and not the south but the main point is he supose to be a little rednecky so it didn't really matter what state he was from. They gave him other generic traits like a accent,love for cat fish and pecan pie and plays a harmonica. It's not really a deep look at Southern culture or bible belt culture or whatever they were going for but it was just enough to get the point home. It's made even more complicated by the fact that you got to also show cultures in a future enviroment and one were earth is supose to be a paradise. Seems like half of human culture is built on what culture hates what other culture and you don't even got that to work with.

Jason

 

[Jayson1]

That's why research departments exist.


I had no idea that "American" is a religion. It makes sense, though, given the preponderance of flag worship and quoting of the scriptures found in their constitution, regardless of whether it makes sense in this modern age.

You are incorrect, however. In TOS, both Uhura and McCoy have dialogue that indicates that they are Christian. We know that both Spock and Sarek observe some sort of Vulcan traditions that might be considered religious, or at least spiritual.


Worf seems in touch with his Klingon culture. So does B'Elanna, at least a little (she does own a bat'leth and speaks Klingon).

This "one hairstyle for all" is Hollywood short-cutting. If they have a standard look, they don't have to spend time and money coming up with variations, and they assume the audience is so stupid that we couldn't figure out that somebody is Vulcan if they have a slightly different hairstyle.

Yet we never see Uhura or McCoy go to church. They don't ever have any specific opinions on abortion or gay rights or really show they even worship a God. Just knowing a BIble verse is hardly all it takes to be Christian. I know a few and I have no interest in being part of a religion. A show like Trek will always sort of just skim the surface of earth culture because it's hard to even nail down what life is like on earth in the 23rd or 24th century.

Jason

 

[Brennyren]

And again: they did show specifics with Chakotay. I listed a string of them. The problem was, the specifics were mutually contradictory where they weren't simply made up.

 

[Refuge]

Chakotay was born in 2329 on a Federation colony. Was that colony America? It wasn't. Was his Native American references specific to one living tribe? Nope. Was it deemed to be? Nope. Did Voyagers expert use book references rather than speaking from his blood line? Yes. ARE there bloodline or book references for a fictional character from a Federation colony - Nope.

 

[Refuge]

These things don't feel specific to me but more like generic short descriptions of each person's culture. The things they did with Chakotay were designed to be vague. They are supose to be just indian enough to get home the point he is indian. Kind of like with Trip. Actually he was supose to be from Florida and not the south but the main point is he supose to be a little rednecky so it didn't really matter what state he was from. They gave him other generic traits like a accent,love for cat fish and pecan pie and plays a harmonica. It's not really a deep look at Southern culture or bible belt culture or whatever they were going for but it was just enough to get the point home. It's made even more complicated by the fact that you got to also show cultures in a future enviroment and one were earth is supose to be a paradise. Seems like half of human culture is built on what culture hates what other culture and you don't even got that to work with.

Jason

That's just it. He was designed to be vague. The producers hired a wannabe as an expert but retained enough smarts to know that if they had assigned Chakotay as being specific to 'this' or 'that' someone might feel he wasn't doing it right. AND he may not have!

I keep thinking about some foreigner on TV trying to do an Aussie accent and sounding awful. I mean if it's an actor trying to be generic 'Aussie' at some stage one surrenders to the stereotype knowing that some kind of representation was attempted. I mean one could whinge. One does - a lot, lol. However there is no Aussie accent. Those from Sydney sound different from Victorians or me.

 

[Refuge]

. Still it's better than how some of the aliens get treated. Imagine all those Vulcans going to one and only barber who always does the bowl on the head look. Then you got the aliens who all wear the same outfits and some aliens only eat one kind of food. If your a developed alien culture you might get 4 or 5 things you can eat.

Jason

(Sorry about the third post in a row - try not to do it again). However that bowl haircut thing is funny! Good point too though, us humanoids are afforded more diversity

 

[Jayson1]

And again: they did show specifics with Chakotay. I listed a string of them. The problem was, the specifics were mutually contradictory where they weren't simply made up.

but since we don't even know what tribe or culture he comes from it basically opens the door to invent things or take a little of this and that from each culture and sort of mix it together. For all we know the cultures themselves have changed over the years Using the machine instead of drugs to bring about a vision quest is one example of how 24th century changes has impacted at least many indians in the 24th century.

I'm guessing most have gone down the aithest route as well and your not going to have modern cliche things like Casino's or even reservations. In fact you would in theory actually see more diversity. Even aliens getting involved. Problem is that their is very little that is unique to 24th century humans. They have all evolved into Roddenberry humans, wear the same kinds of clothes all seem to embrace either technology or retro stuff. Only in Trek would people sit around listening to classical music like it's the 1780's and then go to some room and starting spouting technobabble with each other.

Also their doesn't seem to be much modern art. People write books but most of the holodeck programs seem to be always built around past settings. No movies or tv. The little modern music we have seen is awful. They do seem to still like sports. It is a very conservative world they seem to live in only they have simply removed the religious stuff and sort of transfered some of the racism towards alien cultures but even they are in denial about that.

Jason

 

[Brennyren]

That's just it. He was designed to be vague. The producers hired a wannabe as an expert but retained enough smarts to know that if they had assigned Chakotay as being specific to 'this' or 'that' someone might feel he wasn't doing it right. AND he may not have!

Why bother to hire an "expert" at all if you have no intention of being specific? If they had hired an actual expert, and bothered to listen to what that expert said, they would have had an excellent chance of "doing it right." If not, viewers at least would have known that they made an honest attempt at it. As things were, they hired somebody without going to enough trouble to find out that real Native Americans, and real experts, considered him a fraud, and then they never bothered to bring anyone else on board. No points for effort.

but since we don't even know what tribe or culture he comes from it basically opens the door to invent things or take a little of this and that from each culture and sort of mix it together.

"It just opens the door to invent things." Well, yes. And that's what they did. The difference is that I object to that, and you apparently don't.

The only authentically Native American thing about Chakotay was Robert Beltran's racial heritage. And while he certainly did acknowledge that aspect of his lineage, he personally always came across as identifying more as Latino.

 

[Prax]

"They just assumed the audience is too stupid." That my friend, is an assumption in itself, and an unfair one as it fails to give the benefit of the doubt.

You are in no position to cast judgments.