Why no love for Archer?
- Thread starter Mach5
- Start date
Agreed
And yet, I really like Bakula. He was awesome in Quantum Leap, and he's awesome to his fans.
The crazy thing is that the writers had a better handle on Trip from the get-go, whether they were writing him for comic relief or for emotional impact, they understood who this guy was.
It took them 2 seasons to figure out what Archer's journey should be.
Oh no. We disagree.
I didn't 'hate' Archer or Bakula. I just didn't like them enough to care I guess. I agree that Trineer's Trip was by far the most charismatic male aboard.
(I hope we can still be friends.
)
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Well, Archer was a bit of a prejudiced jerk with anger issues. That's what I liked about ENT from the start, that the Captain was a flawed character. To me, that was a nice change from the perfect Starfleet Captain we got in the other series, most notably in TNG and VOY. I liked the idea that this guy somehow is crucial to the foundation of the Federation, maybe even unwittingly. It sounded like fun to see how that happens. Unfortunately, ENT's run was cut short.
I often disagreed with his decisions and actions. Especially in Season 3 which, at the time, seemed like GWB's wet fantasy to me - all sorts of moral principles get sacrificed in a war against terrorists. In the end, though, this turned out to not be the solution and I appreciated they showed the consequences of those actions (suicidal Archer). But I could always relate to the character. However, as Captains go, he wasn't really that great, I guess. I wouldn't have minded serving under him but I would vote for Picard as the best Captain.
I often disagreed with his decisions and actions. Especially in Season 3 which, at the time, seemed like GWB's wet fantasy to me - all sorts of moral principles get sacrificed in a war against terrorists. In the end, though, this turned out to not be the solution and I appreciated they showed the consequences of those actions (suicidal Archer). But I could always relate to the character. However, as Captains go, he wasn't really that great, I guess. I wouldn't have minded serving under him but I would vote for Picard as the best Captain.
Count Zero, I agree and nice av. I think Roj Blake and Jon Archer have a lot in common. Both overly moral characters who are flawed. I also think without them the show isn't as good. (And I loooooved Avon.)
Comparing captains (who lived in different times, different arenas, with different challenges) is a little like comparing apples and oranges.
There was a poll here in the ENT forum a few months back about Archer--do you like him or not, yes or no? And "yes" got 2/3 of the votes. So it depends on the poll, and who is in the forum that month, I suppose.
I watched a couple of interviews with Bakula from the beginning of Season 1, and the Archer he talked about was a fascinating, compelling, complex character. It seemed that he and the writers had a good handle on the guy...but the scripts may not have illustrated that as clearly as these people saw him. In those early episodes, a lot of Archer's actions and dialogue could be interpreted more than one way--positive or negative for the character, depending on the viewer's perception. If you liked Archer, all well and good, but if you took away a negative impression early on, it would probably be that much harder to get behind the character and root for him in the long run.
Those early episodes worked for me, so I connected with Archer and cared about him. I didn't think he was a bad captain; I thought he was a trailblazer, an explorer rather than a soldier, who often had to learn on the fly, relying on his instincts and compassion to guide him, because Enterprise was doing a lot of things that no one had done before.
I disagree. I think fans expect the same basic qualities in all captains:
- Strength of character
- Strong ethical code and moral values
- The ability to make hard decisions in unexpected situations
- Charm
- The ability to lead, to bring the crew together, bring up the best in it's members, and inspire trust among them
- Certain diplomatic skill (a starship captain is in many ways an ambassador of Earth/UFP)
- Bravery (this one practically goes without saying)
- Authority
I personally like Archer (I especially liked him in the pilot), but I often had the impression that without T'Pol, he wouldn't have been able to even tie his own shoe laces, and too much of the time he seemed to be the living proof that Humans really weren't ready to venture into deep space.
Honestly, after seeing "First Flight", my first thought was: "Robinson really was the right choice."
And this is, I guess, my main problem with Archer, because I can't imagine anyone else but Kirk commanding 1701, Picard commanding "the D," Janeway commanding Voyager and Sisko running DS9, but when it comes to NX-01, Archer wouldn't even be my first choice.
You are so right.
However, perhaps this was B&B's intention all along, you know, with this process of growing up as a species and entering the galactic community (although, when it comes to B&B, I very much doubt that).
However, we have to define the 'Humans' you were writing about first. I remember reading the www.ex-astris-scientia.org website back when ENT was still on the telly. Its author was pissed off without end at the time that ENT (and its makers) always talked about Earth and Humans, but actually meant the United States and Americans. In hindsight, it seems that he wasn't THAT wrong... but what does this say about the 'Humans'?
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That we're all awesome?
I believe firmly in the principles that the framers founded the US on, and from that perspective, I believe that ultimately, everyone else in the world is American, too - they just don't know it, yet.
Of course, the problem is that ENT wasn't just talking about Americans - it was talking about an America that has lost its way, like we did after 9/11. But we're getting back on track now. (I hope.)
Because archer kept quantum leaping and that damn SAM guy kept interfering with his commanding enterprise!
"Ohhh boy." - Archer
That we're all awesome?
I believe firmly in the principles that the framers founded the US on, and from that perspective, I believe that ultimately, everyone else in the world is American, too - they just don't know it, yet.
Of course, the problem is that ENT wasn't just talking about Americans - it was talking about an America that has lost its way, like we did after 9/11. But we're getting back on track now. (I hope.)
You know I remember that episode with kelsey grammer in it and he looks good in that uniform and with the beard... a fitting place on the bridge of a starship instead of a bar... Crazy notion...
(Hm, I'll have to think about it.(I hope we can still be friends.
)Mach5, I think your logic is flawed here. You list some very good points and I'd even say that most of them are the same things I look for in a Trek captain. But – and I think that's the very reason why many of the favorite captain threads always end in heated discussions – everyone has different selection criteria by which they judge their favorite captain. It wouldn't surprise me at all if many people just vote for the best looking captain. Or that with the nicest voice etc. etc. etc. You see, people will never expect the same qualities in their captains. At least that's how I look at it.
I listed the important qualities, ones that should matter, but there will always be superficial people, who dislike Picard because he's bald / French / speaks with British accent, Janeway cause she's a woman and so on. That can't be helped, I'm afraid.
I wouldn't put it that negatively. Who's to say you can't judge your favorite captain (or any character for that matter) by superficial criteria? Linda Park's Ensign Hoshi Sato is one of my favorite characters from Enterprise. That's because I like the way she is portrayed and the fact that she is beautiful.
Personal preference based on pure subjectivity is something I my self (I must admit) am not immune to either. Trip (for example) is my favorite ENT character for many reasons, but the main, the biggest reason is something I just can't point my finger at.I wouldn't put it that negatively. Who's to say you can't judge your favorite captain (or any character for that matter) by superficial criteria? Linda Park's Ensign Hoshi Sato is one of my favorite characters from Enterprise. That's because I like the way she is portrayed and the fact that she is beautiful.
So I guess you're right, the qualities I listed are important, but since all the captains share them (for the most part), they don't make the difference.
And this is just one more reason why I believe that HR's "apples & oranges" theory doesn't work, because when people vote for the best captain, they don't really vote for the commanding officer. They vote for the man.
I think it's much easier to write the everyman than a character who is "the hero." I also think it's why people identify with Trip.
That's not true for me. I voted for Picard, but I like Archer better as a character. I like Archer and Kirk, but Picard is a better captain.
[...] I believe that ultimately, everyone else in the world is American, too - they just don't know it, yet.
To quote Vulcan's most famous son (besides Surak, of course), 'I find that remark... insulting.'
