Why naval traditions and ranks?

[C.E. Evans]

AJBryant said:
How about...

because its a FLEET?

It really is the simplest, most straightforward answer to the question.

If it was called STARFORCE COMMAND, it probably would have air force traditions and ranks. But rather than deal with starships, the big guns would be long range, warp-capable starfighters, IMO...

 

[Balthier the Great]

C.E. Evans said:

AJBryant said:
How about...

because its a FLEET?

It really is the simplest, most straightforward answer to the question.

If it was called STARFORCE COMMAND, it probably would have air force traditions and ranks. But rather than deal with starships, the big guns would be long range, warp-capable starfighters, IMO...

I figured it had more to do with the history of the people involved. A bunch served in the navy, therefore they worked the ships out as though they were navy. If they'd have joined the air force you might have seen a general.

 

[J.T.B.]

Even without any military expertise, most English speakers understand "captain" as the default rank for someone in charge of a ship. This has even extended in the present day to commercial aircraft pilots. And with a little more basic knowledge, most people understand that "lieutenant" is below captain. As it happens those are the only two officer titles mentioned in "The Cage."

"Commander" and "lieutenant commander" are not so straightforward, but once you've established the captain, someone can figure out how everybody relates. So if you're making up a fictional "space force," simply adapting r/w navy ranks is certainly a practical way to go.

NASA went with established military practice of "commander" for the pilot and "pilot" for the co-pilot. This originated in the air force, where captain is a junior officer rank and obviously wouldn't do for a major or colonel in charge of an aircraft.

It's questionable whether a r/w "space force" would use navy ranks, army-type ranks, a hybrid, or something new entirely. The Royal Air Force, combining former army and navy personnel, went with all new ranks in 1919. It is interesting to speculate.

With the one exception that they say "Lieutenant" instead of "Leftenant" or however you spell that.

Actually, the British pronunciation for naval lieutenants used to be more like "l'tenant." This pretty much died out in the 20th century, but some older British-English dictionaries note the naval pronunciation. The Anthony Hopkins/Mel Gibson movie The Bounty got it correct for the period.

--Justin

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

J.T.B. said:
NASA went with established military practice of "commander" for the pilot and "pilot" for the co-pilot. This originated in the air force, where captain is a junior officer rank and obviously wouldn't do for a major or colonel in charge of an aircraft.

Stargate SG-1 has the Air Force in charge of Earth's defense fleet, and even though Earth's ships are commanded by colonels, they are (AFAIK) informally referred to as the 'captains' of their ships.

Babylon 5, OTOH, used a rather confusing mishmash of ranks. It's really hard to tell what rank structure it had.

It's questionable whether a r/w "space force" would use navy ranks, army-type ranks, a hybrid, or something new entirely.

I think it makes more sense to use naval ranks. Just because a ship operates in space doesn't change the fact that it's a *ship*. And that's what navies are for.

 

[Timo]

Indeed, it might be a quirk of history for Earth to have its space program led by the air force. In Trek terms, I mean.

Cultures on earthlike planets would be likely to have air forces as separate military branches before venturing into space, given the ease and significance of atmospheric fighting. But it's by no means said that this air force would be the most qualified to take the crucial steps to spaceflight. Here on Earth, armies did that, with their surface-to-surface ballistic missiles. There was little or no air force involvement in the respective space launcher programs of USSR and USA - that is, in those parts of the programs that eventually succeeded. While aerodynamic spaceplanes would be another way of reaching space, a culture going with rockets might have its space program run by the surface forces predominantly.

And Earth history is full of examples of branch cross-pollination. Early tanks were often crewed by naval personnel, being considered "landships". Ditto for armored trains. Even if NASA in the Trek reality first built "spacecraft", and the US government adopted those for USAF military use, the US might have begun emplying USN personnel and practices as soon as those craft changed into "spaceships" of DY-100 ilk. Indeed, the space services of Trek 20th-21st centuries might quite logically have employed naval personnel for sailing their ships, and air force pilots for flying their shuttles...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[A beaker full of death]

USS Excelsior said:

With the one exception that they say "Lieutenant" instead of "Leftenant" or however you spell that.

It's spelled "Lieutenant."

 

[Red Ranger]

On a related note, we have only seen more familiar army/air force/marine ranks in ENT, in the form of the MACOS, and with one character from the TOS movies, a Colonel West. What happened to those ranks by the time of the 23rd/24th centuries? Are there perhaps planet-bound militaries that have army/air force/marine ranks? And are there probably still navies on worlds with oceans, that probably have traditional naval ranks?

Red Ranger

 

[The Wormhole]

I do find it interesting that people often ask why Star Trek uses Navy ranks, yet people complain that Stargate doesn't use Navy ranks for its starship personel.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Red Ranger said:
On a related note, we have only seen more familiar army/air force/marine ranks in ENT, in the form of the MACOS, and with one character from the TOS movies, a Colonel West. What happened to those ranks by the time of the 23rd/24th centuries? Are there perhaps planet-bound militaries that have army/air force/marine ranks?

I foresee two possibilities:

- The MACOS still exist in the 23rd/24th centuries, and are called that. In this case, Colonel West's uniform (assuming he is a MACO) was probably used because the costume department didn't want to come up with a unique uniform that would never be worn again. Or maybe the MACOS just wore uniforms that looked a lot like Starfleet uniforms - see ENT's "The Forge" for an example of this.

- The MACOS have been absorbed and are now called something like a Starfleet Marine Corps. I find this more likely.

And are there probably still navies on worlds with oceans, that probably have traditional naval ranks?

There's the "Federation Naval Patrol" that Tom Paris wanted to join.

 

[Timo]

Then again, "naval" need not have anything more to do with water in the Trek context than "fleet" or "ship" have.

(Granted, the plot of "30 Days" involved water, but it's by no means said that Paris' desire to join the Naval Patrol would have had anything to do with his interest or skill in flying the Delta Flier into a planet-sized ball of H2O. In the nitpicking sense, that is.)

As for the MACO force, it is of interest that the name expands into Military Assault Command (Ops) - analogous perhaps to the various Commands that exist within today's individual military branches. Remember how Kirk called his Starfleet a unified service in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"? The defense/offense/exploration setup of Earth in the 22nd century might well be a single unified service, with Commands to handle the jobs today done by separate branches.

That is, there would be Military Assault Command for ground fighting (that's what "military" has meant for most of the time the word has existed - the opposite of "naval"), and possibly parallel Military Logistics Command, Military Communications Command and so forth. Or subsections like Military Assault Command (Ops), Military Assault Command (Logistics) etc.

Then there would be Starfleet Command for space stuff, and perhaps a Naval Command for patrolling the seas (which we hear is still being done in the ENT era).

No reason why this couldn't be carried over to Kirk's Starfleet, too. It's not as if we actually hear of conflicting terminology, like "Corps". And everything in and around Starfleet is organized into Commands (or Divisions, which in naval terminology are basically analogous) anyway, in dialogue and in Okudagrams.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crewman47]

Would the Marines in TFF (as they have been assumed to be) have used MACO ranks, like having an officer at 1st/2nd Lieutenant and the rest of them Corporals and Privates, or would they have used Naval ranks with LTJG and Crewman ranks?

 

[Timo]

We only know for sure that the ground combat specialists of TNG/DS9 era (the ones we see and hear addressed, that is) go by naval ranks. Things could go either way back in Kirk's days. Although I still maintain that the guy in ST6:TUC was simply named Cornell-West.

I'm not sure whether the ST5:TFF guys should be considered Marines, or perhaps more like SEAL specialists, or even a police unit trained in hostage situations. (As for civilian or military police, I don't think there even exists such a thing as civilian police in the Federation...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crewman47]

What about this guy in TSFS:

He's credited on IMDB as a Civilian Agent, and it kinda looks like the Bar is on Earth. Then there's also the Prison Guards that Sulu beats up who, although wear the Starfleet emblem, may only be classed as Civilian Prison officers.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

Enrage said:
I've been thinking about this recently: Why does Star Trek use naval traditions, rank structure, etc? If we can assume a natural evolution from the present day it seems far more likely than any future space-borne organization would have adopted Air Force traditions.

Was it simply that it makes it easier to tell stories with a more extensive and established naval history to draw on?

My reason? For disipline.

While Starfleet is dedicated to exploration, the imposition of a naval structure helps the organization fuction smoothly and efficently, and makes it possible to survive attacks from Threat races, and to attack Threat races if needed. I picked this up from a recent Star Trek/Shatnerverse novel about Kirk's teen years.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I was wondering when Timo was going to repeat for the 1,000,000th time that he thinks Colonel was West's name, rather than his rank. I must say, you do keep us entertained.

Seriously though, that is - and I say this with all due respect - the silliest thing I have ever heard. Whatever kind of Colonel he is, he is a Colonel. Let's just live with it. He was even named after a real Marine (Oliver North - 'west', 'north'). Now whether Colonel was a temporary title, like 'colonel of the regiment', or a MACO or Starfleet Marine rank, we have no idea. Any of those would be far more likely than having West have a name like that.

Besides, even if it was his name, there's no way any of the men in that room would have called him that during the briefing - they would have used some title such as "Mr." at the very least.

 

[Dorothy_Zbornak]

Timo said:
We only know for sure that the ground combat specialists of TNG/DS9 era (the ones we see and hear addressed, that is) go by naval ranks. Things could go either way back in Kirk's days. Although I still maintain that the guy in ST6:TUC was simply named Cornell-West.

I'm not sure whether the ST5:TFF guys should be considered Marines, or perhaps more like SEAL specialists, or even a police unit trained in hostage situations. (As for civilian or military police, I don't think there even exists such a thing as civilian police in the Federation...)

Timo Saloniemi

Plus the fact that--as Kirk and company kept pointing out throughout the movie--they only had a skeleton crew aboard. It seems odd a skeleton crew would include dedicated "Marines". There is no evidence of any Starfleet-specific marine force in any Trek.

It's more likely those black-shirted dudes were either shipboard security personnel or other officers with security experience called into service during the Paradise City rescue mission specifically for the mission.

The Colonel West thing is just stupid, plain and simple. In terms of the Trekverse, Starfleet Command probably maintained an armed forces-inspired division within Starfleet, a special forces of some kind, and used army ranks within and this petered out eventually (since we never saw it again). Or, alternatively...Colonel West was his nickname and he was on great terms with *everyone*.

 

[Delta1]

Timo says:
That is, there would be Military Assault Command for ground fighting (that's what "military" has meant for most of the time the word has existed - the opposite of "naval"), and possibly parallel Military Logistics Command, Military Communications Command and so forth. Or subsections like Military Assault Command (Ops), Military Assault Command (Logistics) etc.

I'd combine your suggestions. Only a fraction of the military is actually involved in assaults, and of those, only a portion are the actual operators. A partial, speculative order of battle might look something like this:

Civilian Government
-Starfleet Command
-Maritime Patrol Command
-Military Command
--Military Assault Command
---MAC Operations (MACOs) -- carry guns, take and hold things.
---MAC Logistics -- provides beans and bullets for MACOs when operating apart from Starfleet.
---MAC Miscellaneous -- personnel, training, intel, etc.
--Military Stability and Support Command
---MSASC Operations -- foreign internal defense, low-intensity conflict
---MSASC Logistics -- feeds and arms the MSASCOs
---MSASC Miscellaneous
--Military Support Command
---MSC Operations -- MC-wide planning and operations
---MSC Training -- MC-wide training

And so forth and so on. In my fanboyish order of battle, the Military Command is generally responsible for "boots on the ground/deck" force, except when the prima donnas in Starfleet insist that their own "security" personnel are sufficient for such things. The MAC is the MC unit responsible for killing people and breaking stuff, and the MACOs are the tip of that particular spear.

By Kirk's time, the MC was placed under SF in the org chart, so the commander of the Military Command always reports to the top guy (or gal) in Starfleet. By TUC they're even wearing Starfleet uniforms. But their ranks, and maybe even their organization, could have remained intact from the United Earth days.

I'm also completely open to the idea that Colonel is a given name. Can't be sure until we get some canonical clarification on that point.

 

[Timo]

Love that hierarchy layout. Starfleet probably branches out in a similar manner below the Starfleet Command level - even though people always drop at least part of the full name of the sub-Command. So we get things like Terraform Command without having a clear idea of whether it is

Starfleet Command
-Starfleet Terraform Command
--STC Ops
--STC Logistics
--STC Planning
--STC Public Relations
--STC Activist Unchaining and Deportation

or more like

Starfleet Command
-Starfleet Exploration Command
--SEC Terraform

or

Starfleet Command
-SC Ops
--SC Ops (Terraform)

or something else.

The idea of moving MC under SC sounds like the sort of streamlining that would make both 24th century politicians and 20th-21st century TV people happy: the former because of the "de-emphasis on grisly battlefields" and "decrease of number of combat organizations", the latter because they think the simpler the onscreen world, the better the audiences will receive it.

Then there's also the Prison Guards that Sulu beats up who, although wear the Starfleet emblem, may only be classed as Civilian Prison officers.

I don't get that part. McCoy was clearly thrown in a military gaol, with military guards wearing military insignia. He may have been arrested by a civilian agent (hailing from something called "Federation Security"), but obviously he was ultimately delievered to the hands of Starfleet.

It wouldn't be all that problematic to have all police in the Federation be militia under overall Starfleet command. Many a free nation today operates militia or gendarmerie as the primary or leading law enforcement force. Just because the bosses sit in Ministry/Dept of Defense rather than Ministry/Dept of Interior shouldn't make the police any more or less corrupt, oppressive or unregulated.

And again, making all police militia would be nice streamlining and a departure from stale traditions, thus welcome in a scifi setting.

I'm also completely open to the idea that Colonel is a given name. Can't be sure until we get some canonical clarification on that point.

I doubt we will - and the Cornell-West thing is just a silly joke, but one that IMHO spices up the Trek universe while simultaneously doing away with the single reference to army ranks that plagues our view of Starfleet structure...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Star Wolf]

The Wormhole said:
I do find it interesting that people often ask why Star Trek uses Navy ranks, yet people complain that Stargate doesn't use Navy ranks for its starship personel.

That is because StarGate is set in today's world and the USAF dominates the other services in the Space Command. The Airforce built and runs the secret starship programs. It might be interesting to se Army and Navy try to enter the Stargate program as we see the Russians do.

 

[Mysterion]

Babaganoosh said:
I think it makes more sense to use naval ranks. Just because a ship operates in space doesn't change the fact that it's a *ship*. And that's what navies are for.

FWIW, the USN operated several airships as commissioned vessels back in the 1920's-30's: USS Los Angeles, USS Shenendoah, USS Akron, USS Macon, etc. These rigid airships had the same commissioned status as the usual "wet" ships operated by the USN.