• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Why is uplifting lower species a bad thing?

"favor against"?
Never encounter that expression before?

Actually you are, as long as you insist on using analogies like parents / children
Hmmm, guiding, teaching, nurturing, occasionally pushing. Putting the "child" in a position to one day stand on their own. What's wrong with that?

Grade schools do take on some of the responsibilities of a parent when the student is present in their institution.

I do see it more like a instructor/student relationship. Something like the modern day peacecorp.
 
From the NOTEBOOKS OF LAZARUS LONG:

  • Beware of altruism. It is based on self deception, the root of all evil.
  • Political tags — such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort.
"I don't want to hear any more cracks about The Book."
—Bela Oxmyx
 
Yeah I mostly meant sharing knowledge & technology to races that just haven't developed them yet. Not genetically messing with reptile brains or something.

But it's the truth, one group of people has phasers and is travelling through space and the less advanced is playing in the sand with some rocks.
And that's an incredibly condescending and demeaning thing to say. Lower technology is not lower intelligence; if anything, people with less technology need to use their intellect more, so we're probably dumber on average than our distant ancestors were. (For instance, people in non-literate societies tend to have extraordinary memories, because they need to. And the average person has gotten far worse at math since the pocket calculator was invented.) Ancient humans achieved extraordinary feats of engineering with just "some rocks," figured out how to domesticate plants into edible or otherwise useful forms, devised social and religious rituals, created remarkable works of art, and so forth.

I do believe human beings are smart in general for sure. But if technology is a scale then there are trek races on the lower end. In the scope of Star Trek, if one is using ancient tech then they are hopelessly outmatched at their present time. Many times they need outside help to even survive.

There are smart people in every time period but everyone is chained by the time they are born into. A doctor using leeches vs today's medicine. Old timey dental devices vs. todays dentistry etc... imagine living through that time period and finding out that a highly advanced race chose not to give you the medicine that would have helped.

People may have been smarter at math in some ways back when students were denied calculators in class, but we are still more advanced than them in many ways. Isn't that why people discover things & invent them, so future generations can stand on their shoulders and improve on it and move things forward.
 
I do believe human beings are smart in general for sure. But if technology is a scale then there are trek races on the lower end. In the scope of Star Trek, if one is using ancient tech then they are hopelessly outmatched at their present time. Many times they need outside help to even survive.

Survive what? Outmatched by whom? If there's a competition, the only ones competing with them are the aliens coming down talking about how superior they are.

Civilization isn't a race. There's no requirement that everyone has to catch up to the level arbitrarily set by the most advanced state -- not unless that state is deliberately making things hard on the people who are less advanced. Europe wasn't harmed by China's considerably greater advancement because China wasn't interested in cultural imperialism, preferring to let others come to them and otherwise leave them to their own devices. But many cultures in South Asia, Africa, and the Americas were devastated by Europe's greater advancement because Europe made a "match" out of it, competing with them and insisting they had to catch up to "survive." The only ones creating a threat to their survival were the ones meddling in their lives.


There are smart people in every time period but everyone is chained by the time they are born into. A doctor using leeches vs today's medicine. Old timey dental devices vs. todays dentistry etc... imagine living through that time period and finding out that a highly advanced race chose not to give you the medicine that would have helped.

And that's the problem with TNG's take on the Prime Directive -- it obscures the real issues of well-intentioned cultural imperialism that made the PD a good idea in the first place. As I said, study your history and you can see the horrific damage done by cultures who assume they're helping.

Personally I don't believe in a hands-off policy. I believe that interaction can be healthy as long as the more advanced culture respects the other culture's autonomy and lets them control the interaction, decide for themselves how much technology to adopt and how to fit it into their lives. But there can be a slippery slope if you're not careful, if you fall into the trap of assuming that superior technology or power equals superior wisdom or right to decide. The Prime Directive is a safeguard against that kind of well-meaning condescension. I don't believe it should be an absolute ban on engaging with less technologically advanced cultures, but it's valuable for getting you to pause, think about what you're doing, and proceed with extra care and respect if you do intervene.

The original series came along at a time when the ugly impact of colonialism was just coming to be understood. The end of the Indian Raj had been less than two decades earlier, decolonization was going on in Africa, and Southeast Asia was being torn apart by the aftereffects of European imperialism. It was becoming painfully clear how much damage the "White Man's Burden" mentality caused, not only to the people the imperialists had tried to "help" or "uplift," but to the former imperialists themselves. The writers of TOS created the Prime Directive as a reaction to that, a recognition that well-intended cultural imperialism was a dangerous thing and that it was more important to respect the free choice of other cultures. It was perhaps an overreaction, but the concerns it addressed were very real. It's unfortunate that by TNG, people had lost sight of those lessons and reinterpreted the PD to mean "They're so primitive and stupid that they can't possibly survive our superior knowledge," which is just the flipside of the same condescension. It's still assuming you're entitled to make decisions for them rather than respecting their right to make decisions for themselves. And since the PD has come to be associated with that unfortunate idea, it's obscured the merits of the original, anticolonialist version.


People may have been smarter at math in some ways back when students were denied calculators in class, but we are still more advanced than them in many ways. Isn't that why people discover things & invent them, so future generations can stand on their shoulders and improve on it and move things forward.

But what if someone more advanced comes down and hands you all those things so that you never discover or invent them for yourselves? Will you really understand them and be able to use them wisely? Will you be able to build on them, or will you just be dependent on your mentors to hold your hand forevermore? It's the "give a man a fish/teach a man to fish" principle, basically.

In any case, the important thing is that the decision should be theirs. It's their culture being affected, so it's their responsibility. You can't possibly understand that if you insist on thinking of them as "lower."
 
Survive what? Outmatched by whom? If there's a competition, the only ones competing with them are the aliens coming down talking about how superior they are.

Any race less moral than the Federation that wanders by with a phaser, which we know there are many that are hostile.

But what if someone more advanced comes down and hands you all those things so that you never discover or invent them for yourselves? Will you really understand them and be able to use them wisely? Will you be able to build on them, or will you just be dependent on your mentors to hold your hand forevermore? It's the "give a man a fish/teach a man to fish" principle, basically.
Every day I go to college and I'm handed things from more advanced people. They might as well be from an alien race. Do I always understand how it was built... not exactly. I'll never know everything but hopefully I'll be able to contribute after enough study.

I'll forever be dependent on outside sources of knowledge, there's so much information out there I don't see how it could be any other way. Otherwise I'd have to reinvent the wheel on every project.

In any case, the important thing is that the decision should be theirs. It's their culture being affected, so it's their responsibility. You can't possibly understand that if you insist on thinking of them as "lower."
I agree but how can they make the decision, when they don't know the question exists? Many technologies which they could not even imagine. The impact to the culture could only possibly be known to those who have the technology. Therefore I think it's the responsibility of those who possess the technology to decide it would be beneficial to share. And as you say, with their permission of course - which would be a tricky thing to judge.
 
Let's say Aliens came to Earth today, who do they approach?

Everyone at the same time
Who they percieve to be the most powerful nation
Who they percieve to be the most influential nation.
Who they percieve to be most like them
The UN

Let's say Aliens landed on the White House lawn today, how do you think the likes of China or Russia would react? They could end making things worse.
 
Didnt Trelaine and Apollo try to uplift the Federation?
didn't Q want to do that?
Ever see a private little war? The one with John Gill?
 
Let's say Aliens came to Earth today, who do they approach?

Everyone at the same time
Who they percieve to be the most powerful nation
Who they percieve to be the most influential nation.
Who they percieve to be most like them
The UN

Let's say Aliens landed on the White House lawn today, how do you think the likes of China or Russia would react? They could end making things worse.

Every party would try to curry favor with the aliens. They would try to pull the aliens on their side to get the hands on their technology/power to play off one party against the other.
 
The ideal example of a culture adopting more advanced technology and not being harmed by it is Europe. For many centuries, Europe was considerably less technologically advanced than China and the Islamic world. But over time, Europe obtained new technologies and knowledge from the East -- the stirrup, the compass, the moldboard plow, gunpowder, the lateen sail, the printing press, plus lots of mathematical and scientific knowledge. The thinkers of the Enlightenment were influenced by elements of Chinese philosophy as well, such as the principle that a ruler's obligation is to serve the people rather than his own self-interest. And Europe used these acquired technological and intellectual advances to become the dominant power on the planet. It survived the influx of new technologies and ideas because nobody forced them on the Europeans; rather, they were free to adopt and embrace them at their own pace and use them according to their own needs. And yet when Europeans then tried to bring their own technology, religion, and values to less technically advanced societies in turn, they did enormous harm, because they tried to control the process themselves rather than letting other cultures make their own choices about how to conduct the interaction.

That doesn't make any sense at all.

First of all, Europe is not some monolithic culture. It's a multitude of cultures.

Second, cultures and peoples were harmed by Europeans and their technology, and greatly so, both inside Europe and outside, all over the world. How many people have been directly killed in war because Europeans had access to advanced technology? Over a hundred million at least, many, if not most, in Europe itself, especially if we count western Russia as a part of Europe.

This is hardly an ideal example here.
 
Well for a hypthothetical lets say Aliens leaked some insanely great energy ideas to everyone across the world simultaneously. Could be dangerous, maybe, but the world already has nukes that could destroy it. But energy problems are now trivial to mankind. Sounds good to me.
 
Is it possible that it may not be as difficult as it's made out to be?

Don't tamper with religion. Don't tamper with politics. Don't aid oppressive cultures. Don't share weapons technology. Offer conditions to cultures that may want you to share with them.

Could it be that easy?

Could it be that the prime directive (TNG) has convinced everyone that helping is wrong?
 
I can only think of two fictional examples of uplift off the top of my head: the Founders uplifting the Vorta, and of course David Brin's Uplift series. In both cases, uplifted races ended up as vassals to their uplifters.

It could be the Federation believes the temptation to relegate an uplifted species to that status would be too great.
 
Let's say Aliens came to Earth today, who do they approach?

Everyone at the same time
Who they percieve to be the most powerful nation
Who they percieve to be the most influential nation.
Who they percieve to be most like them
The UN
The internet, introduce themselves through social media.

Stay the hell away from any government.

Appear on Ellen DeGeneres, Jimmy Fallon and Bill O'Reilly (in America).

:)
 
Let's say Aliens came to Earth today, who do they approach?

Everyone at the same time
Who they percieve to be the most powerful nation
Who they percieve to be the most influential nation.
Who they percieve to be most like them
The UN

Let's say Aliens landed on the White House lawn today, how do you think the likes of China or Russia would react? They could end making things worse.

Every party would try to curry favor with the aliens. They would try to pull the aliens on their side to get the hands on their technology/power to play off one party against the other.

My read and opinion of the Sino-Russian reaction would be Paranoia and Suspicion. I think they would assume we had already had contact and cut a deal, or invited the Aliens and excluded the Chinese and Russians. It would be a hard sell, and might cause Them to get out that cookbook, after all.

The ideal example of a culture adopting more advanced technology and not being harmed by it is Europe. For many centuries, Europe was considerably less technologically advanced than China and the Islamic world. But over time, Europe obtained new technologies and knowledge from the East -- the stirrup, the compass, the moldboard plow, gunpowder, the lateen sail, the printing press, plus lots of mathematical and scientific knowledge. The thinkers of the Enlightenment were influenced by elements of Chinese philosophy as well, such as the principle that a ruler's obligation is to serve the people rather than his own self-interest. And Europe used these acquired technological and intellectual advances to become the dominant power on the planet. It survived the influx of new technologies and ideas because nobody forced them on the Europeans; rather, they were free to adopt and embrace them at their own pace and use them according to their own needs. And yet when Europeans then tried to bring their own technology, religion, and values to less technically advanced societies in turn, they did enormous harm, because they tried to control the process themselves rather than letting other cultures make their own choices about how to conduct the interaction.

That doesn't make any sense at all.

First of all, Europe is not some monolithic culture. It's a multitude of cultures.

Second, cultures and peoples were harmed by Europeans and their technology, and greatly so, both inside Europe and outside, all over the world. How many people have been directly killed in war because Europeans had access to advanced technology? Over a hundred million at least, many, if not most, in Europe itself, especially if we count western Russia as a part of Europe.

This is hardly an ideal example here.

Christopher, much that you say above is true about "Europe" acquiring tech and knowledge from all corners, but is it not also true that for many, many years of its history, the knowledge was kept by the elite?; Royalty, Priesthood, PowerMerchants, Military, and the like? Even now, we in every country are aware of many advances and acquisitions of "knowledge", but are not aware of it all. National Security, Military-Industrial Complex obsfucation, State Secrets, Paranoid (and sometimes justified) Mistrust, etc.?
 
Re: Parent/Child - not a valid comparison. A Parent/Child is by definition part of the same culture and civilization. A more apt comparison would be about some adult in one town that tries to interfere in the life of another unrelated child living in another country.

Re: War - No, scarcity of resources is not the sole cause of war. Desire for power/empire building/conquest for the sake of conquest has spurred many wars. Likewise, the oppressed overthrowing their oppressors has also been a cause for war.

I read a sci-fi novel years ago, can't remember the author or title, that was an allegory for European encroachment on Africa. An advanced race found a primitive species and tried to "uplift" them. The end result was such cultural contamination that the native culture collapsed. The people were still there, but their society and everything they held dear was eventually tossed aside. Janlaope's Tree, which was a unifying and inspiring symbol the culture used or generations, was cut down and used for firewood.

CJ Cherryh's "Foreigner" series has as it's theme the dangers of uplifting a technologically inferior civilization. Humans did not understand the social and cultural aspects of the alien Atevi civilization and, as a result of their "uplifting," inadvertently caused or nearly caused a planet-wide civil war. Yes, in this series, the humans do share their advanced technology, but gradually and only by observing certain rules and regulations designed to protect Atevi civilization.

Yes, give a child a high powered rifle or a chainsaw without training and instruction and you might do more harm than good.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top