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Why is uplifting lower species a bad thing?

Makarov

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
Leaving all of them to develop on their own is like... dropping a kid off in the woods and telling them to survive.

I understand there might be some cultural contamination but so what? By intervening they might skip the horrible stages like world wars.

Lets say Aliens beamed down and prevented all world wars on earth. According to Trek, there were horrible wars until earth developed warp and made contact. If aliens had beamed down and just given that technology, would it be so bad?

Parents teach their children so they can grow up. Why is it any different with the federation helping out other species?
 
Two reasons, one good and one stupid.

The good reason is because, if you could imagine what might have happened if Earth was just a few decades more advanced during World War II. If Hitler had atomic bombs. If you give advanced technology to a culture with war still on their minds, they might use it to destroy themselves. Also, it's impossible for a technologically advanced culture to interact with a less advanced culture without implicitly gaining power over them and implicitly giving huge power advantages to the people who make them happy.

The stupid reason is because, master plan of the universe, blah blah blah.
 
I think it also has to do with the maturity of a civilization as a whole. If organized sections of the world can get along in peace, plus develop technologically: they'll be twice as ready to join a greater stage. (Maybe it's like a small business growing into a larger one?)
 
It's not a bad thing to uplift a lower species, but it is a bad thing to give them things they aren't ready for yet. Imagine if some alien species had given us nuclear technology during biblical times. Sure, some civilizations would have used it for beneficial purposes, but others might have easily used it back then as a weapon to smite their enemies (or anyone that's simply different than them). Our world would be vastly different than it is today.

Better to let that society mature first before giving them a leg up. In Star Trek, the development of warp technology was used as a general (and arbitrary) yard stick by the Federation, but it could vary from society to society, IMO (with some it could be the existence of a unified planetary government or having already established first contact with another off-world civilization). I think it really just comes down to a civilization having matured enough to be responsible for itself.
 
But we see that a lot of war mentality is based around fighting over resources. So yeah it's our natural habitat, but it's full of dangers that could easily be taken away by a friendly advanced civilization. Did earth really grow out of war mentality on Trek? We see in First Contact that warp is invented by desperate people who are still very much in war mentality. Cochrane even says he developed it to get riches and women.

Plus 99% of the beings who are living and dying during the primitive times probably have little power to get themselves out of the situation. Their potential is extremely limited without the technology.
 
Lets say Aliens beamed down and prevented all world wars on earth.

How would they do that? Take over the planet and force their enlightenment on the people, whether the people want it or not? History shows how well THAT works.

If people want to fight, they're going to fight. If you try to impose peace on them, all they're going to do is fight you instead of each other. The "enlightened" view would be to wait until they're read to try something besides fighting.

According to Trek, there were horrible wars until earth developed warp and made contact. If aliens had beamed down and just given that technology, would it be so bad?

Leaving all of them to develop on their own is like... dropping a kid off in the woods and telling them to survive.

No, it's like leaving a kid in his own home and telling him to survive.

And just giving advanced technology to war-prone people is like telling a kid to put down his slingshot and giving him a revolver instead. "But be careful with it!" :rolleyes:
 
But we see that a lot of war mentality is based around fighting over resources. So yeah it's our natural habitat, but it's full of dangers that could easily be taken away by a friendly advanced civilization.

Plus 99% of the beings who are living and dying during the primitive times probably have little power to get themselves out of the situation. Their potential is extremely limited without the technology.

Part of primitive culture is the aggression necessary to cope with a hostile environment. Simply making their environment less hostile does not fix the problem of cultural aggression. In fact, if you fixed the environment without addressing the cultural aggression at all, you'd simply improve the primitives' ability to make war. You'd then simply make matters much worse. Learning how to live with more advanced technology takes time. Cultures need time to assimilate it.
 
This is why.

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You guys are making me want to replay mass effect.

No, it's like leaving a kid in his own home and telling him to survive.

But no one does that. Except for the kid in Home Alone and look how that turned out :techman:

Human beings go to college and learn. Should we be forced to re-discover from scratch everything that has been learned by the past generation? Nope we stand on their shoulders.
 
Parents teach their children so they can grow up. Why is it any different with the federation helping out other species?

You've answered your own question by the way you phrased it. Thinking of another culture as "lower" or "children" is extremely condescending. It's exactly the way the British Empire and other European cultural imperialists thought about the people of India, Africa, the Americas, the Pacific Islands, etc. when they sent in missionaries to convert the natives or colonial governors to undertake the "Civilising Mission." In their view, "uplifting" the "lower" cultures meant rejecting the validity of their own beliefs and traditions and transforming them into carbon copies of European Christendom. And the results were horrific. Cultures around the world were oppressed, persecuted, and brutalized by colonial masters who convinced themselves it was for the natives' own good. And since they were defined as intrinsically "lower" and childlike, they were denied voices in the culture that was making the decisions about their future, and in many cases were left with no choice but revolution. The history of the 20th century and the tragic failure of colonialism is an extended lesson in why it's so dangerous to see other cultures as "lower" than yourself and assume you're entitled to make them more like you "for their own good."

One thing a lot of people forget -- including the writers for TNG, unfortunately -- is that the reasons for the Prime Directive aren't about the natives, they're about the Federation. It's not that the natives are too primitive and fragile to understand or survive the knowledge you have to bring them; that's just more of the same smug condescension. It's about recognizing that we are not intrinsically superior, just different -- that they understand their own cultures and needs better than we possibly can, and so we're simply not qualified to tell them what changes will help them or hurt them. In order for change or progress to be beneficial rather than disruptive, a culture needs to adopt it in their own way, at their own pace, and for their own reasons.

Certainly the Prime Directive can be taken too far -- TNG's "Let them die as a species rather than reveal our existence to them" version is an insane corruption of what it's supposed to be about. But it's necessary as a check on one's own exercise of power, a reminder to respect the autonomy of other civilizations and not demean them as "lower" or childlike just because you have a few centuries on them in the technology department.
 
When I say lower, all I mean is technologically and scientifically less advanced. Not in any way superior as far as cultural or anything like that. But it's the truth, one group of people has phasers and is travelling through space and the less advanced is playing in the sand with some rocks.

Sure in a long timeline they'll develop the same technology ( if they happen to survive), but at the moment of comparison, one has advanced and the other has not. Technologically superior, medically superior, and more knowledgeable about the world they live in.

The episode where Data is stuck on a primitive planet with memory loss comes to mind, this lady starts naming these elements and Data straight up tells her she's incorrect. Data is not superior to that lady, but his information absolutely is.

As far as how they could help other species without destroying their culture... I'm not sure. But it seems to me that there's no reason to lie to a primitive species about the existence of other worlds when they run into them.
 
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Lets say Aliens beamed down and prevented all world wars on earth.
There by leaving the Nazi's in power and allowing Germany to finish the Holocaust.

Wars are violent affairs, but they occasionally bring important changes. American being in control of Japan after WWII brought women's rights to that nation, something that wouldn't have happen in the same time span.

If you give advanced technology to a culture with war still on their minds, they might use it to destroy themselves.
Okay, and what if you teach them basic hygene, nutrition, when to rotate their crops, what their women should eat different when pregnant, how to dig water wells and construct simply water pumps.

You know, stuff like that?

It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

No, it's like leaving a kid in his own home and telling him to survive
Or you could take that same kid out of his home and send him to a grade school.

Might they use the knowledge you give them to engage in war? Maybe, but the first thing you have to admit to yourself is you're not going to be in control of these people and the choices they make for themselves.

A knife can be employed as a weapon, but it always will be primarily a tool.

:)
 
I'm not sure if we're talking about making a species of low intelligence more intelligent, making a non-sentient species sentient, or giving technology to a species that has a little?
 
When I say lower, all I mean is technologically and scientifically less advanced. Not in any way superior as far as cultural or anything like that.

Actually you are, as long as you insist on using analogies like parents / children.

The role of parents grants they are 1) authority figures with assumed superiority, 2) mature enough to be trusted with judgment calls (and it assumes the children aren't), 3) entrusted with the day-to-day well-being of the children, and 4) expected to guide the children through their development and education.

If you envision advanced aliens as parents, you are ascribing all four of these aspects to them; i.e. you envision they have an inherent right and a duty to fill all four of these roles. You're not just saying they have bigger toys.

If you don't really think the aliens should have a right and a duty to all four roles, then your parent analogy doesn't work.


No, it's like leaving a kid in his own home and telling him to survive.

But no one does that. Except for the kid in Home Alone and look how that turned out :techman:

Uh, he came out of it just fine?

And how many people drop kids off in the middle of the woods and tell them to take care of themselves?

Broken analogies everywhere today.
 
I'm not sure if we're talking about making a species of low intelligence more intelligent, making a non-sentient species sentient, or giving technology to a species that has a little?
I was under the impression that we were discussing the latter, "giving technology to a species that has a little."

The other two options you mention would seem to entail a biological or genetic alteration, which I would favor against.

Perhaps "knowledge" would be a better term than technology, although there might be a technology transfer as well. Teaching them metallurgy rather than simply giving them actual tools. How to "do it yourself."

:)
 
I'm not sure if we're talking about making a species of low intelligence more intelligent, making a non-sentient species sentient, or giving technology to a species that has a little?
I was under the impression that we were discussing the latter, "giving technology to a species that has a little."

The other two options you mention would seem to entail a biological or genetic alteration, which I would favor against.

Perhaps "knowledge" would be a better term than technology, although there might be a technology transfer as well. Teaching them metallurgy rather than simply giving them actual tools. How to "do it yourself."

:)

"favor against"? :confused:

Anyway, there are many ways to help people that are way better than just doing nothing.
 
When I say lower, all I mean is technologically and scientifically less advanced.

But using the word "lower" at all reveals an unexamined assumption of hierarchy and value. The insidious thing about prejudice is that it's frequently unconscious. The British Empire and the missionaries believed they meant well and only wanted to help, but their unconscious assumption of superiority led to enormous harm. Before you start meddling in other people's lives, you need to take a hard, critical look at yourself, at your own assumptions and motives, and get yourself in order. That's what the Prime Directive is for.


But it's the truth, one group of people has phasers and is travelling through space and the less advanced is playing in the sand with some rocks.

And that's an incredibly condescending and demeaning thing to say. Lower technology is not lower intelligence; if anything, people with less technology need to use their intellect more, so we're probably dumber on average than our distant ancestors were. (For instance, people in non-literate societies tend to have extraordinary memories, because they need to. And the average person has gotten far worse at math since the pocket calculator was invented.) Ancient humans achieved extraordinary feats of engineering with just "some rocks," figured out how to domesticate plants into edible or otherwise useful forms, devised social and religious rituals, created remarkable works of art, and so forth.


Sure in a long timeline they'll develop the same technology ( if they happen to survive), but at the moment of comparison, one has advanced and the other has not. Technologically superior, medically superior, and more knowledgeable about the world they live in.

But that's just it -- if you're a human who's never been to Beta Exemplica IV before, you aren't more knowledgeable about Beta Exemplica IV than the Beta Exemplicans who've lived there all their lives, who have grown up within their society and understand how it works, who understand their own belief systems and traditions that you might profoundly misinterpret because you're filtering them through your own prejudices. If you push changes on them that you think will be improvements, you could end up unbalancing and disrupting their society and causing enormous harm. They understand their own world better than you will, and they are not children but intelligent adults able to make their own decisions. So they're the only ones qualified to decide what changes work for them.


As far as how they could help other species without destroying their culture... I'm not sure. But it seems to me that there's no reason to lie to a primitive species about the existence of other worlds when they run into them.

Now, that's the first thing you've said that makes sense. It's true that new knowledge won't be intrinsically harmful to a society. On the contrary, historically, the most dynamic and vigorous societies have been the ones that traded and interacted with other cultures, that were exposed to new ideas all the time. But the key is that they were free to adopt or reject those ideas as they saw fit, to take charge of interpreting and adapting them to fit their own way of living. That process of syncretism -- adapting new beliefs to reconcile with your existing worldview -- is the natural way that societies respond to new input. For instance, when a society is "converted" to a new religion, they generally don't just throw out everything they believed in favor of the new stuff, but fold the new religion into their own existing beliefs and customs -- like the way Vodoun and Santeria identify Catholic saints with traditional West African divinities and incorporate them into practices and rituals that originated in West African religion. By adapting the new beliefs into their existing social structure, they can incorporate them without their way of life being disrupted. But only they know how to do that.

The ideal example of a culture adopting more advanced technology and not being harmed by it is Europe. For many centuries, Europe was considerably less technologically advanced than China and the Islamic world. But over time, Europe obtained new technologies and knowledge from the East -- the stirrup, the compass, the moldboard plow, gunpowder, the lateen sail, the printing press, plus lots of mathematical and scientific knowledge. The thinkers of the Enlightenment were influenced by elements of Chinese philosophy as well, such as the principle that a ruler's obligation is to serve the people rather than his own self-interest. And Europe used these acquired technological and intellectual advances to become the dominant power on the planet. It survived the influx of new technologies and ideas because nobody forced them on the Europeans; rather, they were free to adopt and embrace them at their own pace and use them according to their own needs. And yet when Europeans then tried to bring their own technology, religion, and values to less technically advanced societies in turn, they did enormous harm, because they tried to control the process themselves rather than letting other cultures make their own choices about how to conduct the interaction.
 
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