Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think it's a matter of semantics and priorities really, per the "Starfleet" article on startrek.com the organisation is:

Branch of the United Federation of Planets assigned to the exploration of space and the resulting scientific, diplomatic and defensive duties. Starfleet began as an Earth agency dedicated to space exploration. To this end, Starfleet utilized interstellar starships and eventually built and maintained a network of starbases. The first warp 5 starship, the Enterprise NX-01, was launched in April 2151 and captained by Jonathan Archer. The ship represented humankind's first foray into long-term space travel. - See more at: http://www.startrek.com/database_article/starfleet#sthash.gtZlfLfT.dpuf

Which suggests to me that the organisation as a whole would best be described as a multi-role government agency but parts of the agency have a collateral military role as the circumstances require it (the UESPA and Andorian Guard divisions per post-ENT Treklit, may have been renamed/merged into the Starfleet Exploratory Division (from various dedication plaques)/Deep Space [Exploration] Corps (from Measure of a Man at some point pre-TNG).

This relationship between the "defense arm" (which is also the main instrument of scientific operations and a major diplomatic force) and the agency as a whole is analogus to the relationship of the USCG (a nominally military organisation mostly tasked to do pretty much anything else) to the Department of Homeland Security.

 

[Prax]

What an interesting thread. I have something:

From "Brothers"
SOONG: "..You've become something of a celebrity in cybernetic circles. Data, why Starfleet?
DATA: Sir?
SOONG: I gave you the ability to choose whatever you wanted. To do whatever you wanted. Why Starfleet?
DATA: It was Starfleet officers who rescued me.
SOONG: Ah. So you decided to emulate your emancipators, huh? How disappointing.
DATA: What choice of vocation would have met with your approval, sir?
SOONG: Well, I often hoped ..you might ...become a scientist...... Perhaps even a cyberneticist.
DATA: To follow in your footsteps, as it were?
SOONG: I see nothing wrong with that.

From "Rapture"
WORF: Those quarters are not appropriate for Admiral Colti. She outranks Admiral Veta.
ODO: Well then we'll put her in H two, Veta in D nine, and Rifkin in K four.
WORF: That will not do. Rifkin commands a starship. Protocol requires he be given equal quarters.
ODO: But he's only a captain.
WORF: It is naval tradition.

From "Nor the Battle to the Strong..."
JAKE: What's going to happen to him?
BASHIR: Oh, he'll probably be court-martialed.
JAKE: He said that some of the people in his squad got scared and ran.
BASHIR: It happens.
JAKE: But they're Starfleet. They've passed psych-tests. They've spent hundreds of hours in battle simulations.
BASHIR: Simulations can't prepare you for the real thing. Nothing can.
JAKE: Some people say that you don't know what you're really made of until you've been in battle

...later on

BURKE: You didn't see a crashed hopper around here, did you?
JAKE: No.
BURKE: They made it!
JAKE: Who?
BURKE: My platoon. The Klingons had us pinned down. We couldn't beam out because they had a transport scrambler running. We called for a hopper. As soon as it set down, the Klingons came after us. CO ordered me and Brice to lay down cover so the squad could get up the ramp. By the time Brice got in, the Klingons were practically on top of us. The hopper was taking such a pounding, I didn't think it would make it off the ground.

 

[1001001]

So glad this thread is back....

 

[BillJ]

So glad this thread is back....

"Starfleet is the military!!!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"

 

[Balok's Decoy]

"Starfleet is the military!!!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"

Is not!!!

 

[jaime]

Is not!!!

Is too!
.
.
Shit. That's not my normal side in this argument.

 

[fireproof78]

Starfleet is an exploration agency and they'll shoot you if you argue with them.

 

[The Wormhole]

So glad this thread is back....

I am admittedly biased, but this thread does seem somewhat civil compared to other threads on this matter.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Is not!!!

Is too times ten.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

But is River really an archaeologist or more a thief?

 

[The Wormhole]

But is River really an archaeologist or more a thief?

Her doctorate is in archaeology, making her an archaeologist. The fact that she's also a thief does not negate that.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Her doctorate is in archaeology, making her an archaeologist. The fact that she's also a thief does not negate that.

Fair enough.

 

[Prax]

"No it's not"

"Yes it is"

"No it's not"

"yes it is, yes iT IS, YES IT ISSSSS!....

....Anything you can say, I beg to diffferrrr, I beg to dif-fer with any-thing you..."

 

[The Wormhole]

I will admit a recent discussion about the Orion Syndicate had me thinking back to this subject, in that the Orion Syndicate actually admits that it is a criminal organization. So in Star Trek, we have criminals who actually think of themselves as criminals, but a military that is in denial about being military. That amuses me for some reason.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

You guys, let's just settle this debate once and for all by examining Gene Roddenberry's essay, "Is Starfleet a Military?: A Canonical Answer to Settle Any and All Debates Between a Bunch of Nerds on the Internet (Which Doesn't Exist Yet But Will Eventually, Mark My Words)", which I quote below in its entirety:

"Is Starfleet a military or a scientific/exploration service? Is their mission to defend the Federation or to explore strange new worlds and civilizations? Is Kirk a Nimitz or a Magellan? Boldly go or boldly pew-pew? The answer: Yes. The answer is yes. THE END." -signed, Gene "Everything Falls to Me" Roddenberry

 

[J.T.B.]

Is Kirk a Nimitz or a Magellan?

Of course not a Nimitz, he was very successful as an admiral!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

This relationship between the "defense arm" (which is also the main instrument of scientific operations and a major diplomatic force) and the agency as a whole is analogus to the relationship of the USCG (a nominally military organisation mostly tasked to do pretty much anything else) to the Department of Homeland Security.

Well, to sum up some of our conclusions from the other thread:

"Military" is as much a legal term as it is a colloquialism, and the legal definition tends to shift. For example: the fact that the NSA and is technically a military organization and the CIA is not means there are things the NSA is not allowed to do that the CIA can, despite the fact that they serve VERY similar roles in the intelligence community. OTOH, the non-military CIA still maintains tactical squads that can lawfully assassinate terrorists or conduct low intensity warfare operations, which is both weird and troubling for other reasons. Starfleet not being defined as "military" could have any number of legal reasons, but it probably has more to do with funding priorities (scientific research and resource exploration of the type Starfleet does tends to pay for itself; military funding, not so much).

Second conclusion: just going by TOS and the movie era it seems clear that at least PART of Starfleet is legally or transferally military. As a "combined service" between military, scientific and law enforcement agencies that all contribute some of their best people to the overall umbrella of Starfleet/UESPA. That would make it analogous to, say, NASA or Roskosmos, which I think is what Enterprise went out of its way to depict (e.g. Reed is Royal Navy guy, the MACOs are basically space marines, Archer and Trip are career Starfleet and Hoshii basically walks onto the ship straight out of a university job).

Of course not a Nimitz, he was very successful as an admiral!

Yeah... Kirk SUCKED as an Admiral. They never should have promoted his ass.

 

[Nyotarules]

Starfleet is a nightclub on the planet Risa

 

[The Wormhole]

Hoshii basically walks onto the ship straight out of a university job

Season 4 retconned Hoshi as having been through "Starfleet training." Of course, that same episode (Observer Effect) also retconned away her personality and character prior to that episode and made her a badass rebel operating an illegal gambling racket during her training days, and then sacking her drill instructor with martial arts when she was caught.

 

[Galileo7]

"Starfleet is the military!!!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"
"Is not!"
"Is too!"

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