Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[InklingStar]

I think you can't really be surprised when folks get offended and/or defensive if someone basically comes out and says "the problem was that people just had an issue with the captain's gender," especially when they don't refer to any comments made OR cite any evidence for this view.

Now if someone on this thread had written "I had a problem with Voyager because I couldn't take the idea of a female captain seriously," and someone had justifiably pounced on THAT, we'd have a different scenario.

I've heard criticisms of Janeway from fans for being wildly inconsistent or making immoral decisions, but not for her gender. And incidentally, I think she's probably a more popular captain in Trek fandom than Archer and possibly Sisko. Speaking for myself, she ranks ahead of Archer and Picard, but behind Kirk and Sisko.

It was mentioned that the acceptance of strong female Trek characters in other roles doesn't count toward disproving sexism in fandom, because "they're not the captain." But I don't get that-we're talking about a fictional show, not a military captain you'd have to serve under. If they'd accept a female chief engineer or female first officer, why would they suddenly balk at accepting a female captain? The first officer is superior to every single member of the crew except one, the captain is just superior to one more member.

I think there are a lot of people that have problems with Janeway’s gender without realizing that is the actual problem. No one is going to say “I have a problem with Janeway because she is a woman.” That is completely politically incorrect and everyone knows it, but what a lot of us see is people, that don’t want to be misogynists, hampered by an attitude that is anti-female. She makes them uncomfortable, so they find reasons to dislike her, reasons that they think are unbiased. They think they are being fair and impartial when in all reality they are not, and are for the most part completely ignorant of that fact.

Most prejudices are carefully taught and learned and are so ingrained within the individual, that the individual doesn’t even realize their attitude is based in prejudice.

It is very important that Janeway is a female captain and that she commands a star ship. I know Kira is a strong woman and I also know that Jadiza (who incidentally is actually my favorite female Trek character) are strong women but they are not the “Captain.” I wonder why people cannot see that single fact. Janeway and only Janeway in the Trek series is in charge and in fact due to the distance from the Federation there is no one higher than her in charge either. You cannot say that about any other character in Trek, male or female. The difference is not who serves under her but who serves over her.

Sonak, the way you get to the point of having real female military commanders is to make the public at large comfortable with the idea, and the way you do that is by not ridiculing fictional female characters, or making them expendable.

Whether you want to acknowledge the problem or not, the problem is a real one. Girls and women need to be exposed to strong female characters, and to women in charge.

If this discussion was on the DS9 forum and the argument was about Sisko’s ability to command and the arguments against him were as undeserved as a lot of the arguments used against Janeway, for example (and there have been threads here on the BBS for this very subject) “I don’t like his voice.” There will be Trek fans that will assume the people using this argument are prejudiced against Sisko because he is black.

You can even mention all the other strong Trek characters that are black but that would not mean the same thing as Sisko being a black Captain, and in those fans eyes you will appear even more prejudiced than if you hadn’t mentioned the others at all.

Janeway is a female captain, there are no other Trek series with female captains as the lead actor just the same way that Sisko is a black captain and there are no other black captains as the lead actor in any of the other series. This is way she is important and equally why he is also, and for the very same reasons. They tell us that in the future a person’s race or gender will not stand in the way of their success. You can site all the strong character you want but they will still not be “The Captain.”

Finally female characters in general and in any media do not get the respect that they deserve.

http://bitchmagazine.org/post/pushb...-i-just-dont-like-that-many-female-characters

This is a blog about the criticism against various female characters on today’s television, and Trek is not mentioned (Doctor Who and True Blood are). The criticisms here used against other female characters are the same ones I see used against Kathryn Janeway.

Brit

I think what this attitude does is inoculate against any criticism. If anyone dislikes Janeway, or criticizes her characterization, then you can just say "Oh, they're prejudiced because Janeway is a woman." Honestly, that's MORE of a sexist attitude than not, because you're not allowing the character to be held to the same standards as the other Trek captains.

Some people didn't like Sisko's emotionalism and over-the-top acting, which had nothing to do with Avery Brooks being African-American. Some did not like the way Picard waffled on some issues and seemed to make decisions by committee. This had nothing to do with Patrick Stewart's lack of hair. Still others disliked the way Janeway's inconsistency, but it has nothing to do with Kate Mulgrew being a woman.

 

[Cepstrum]

I'm late to this thread, and don't have any arguments to offer. I would like to express my opinions about VOY, though.


I had always been somewhat familiar/aware of Trek, but it wasn't until I caught reruns of VOY that I became a huge Trekkie. For that reason alone, I'll always be grateful to VOY. Since then I've become a big fan of both TNG and DS9 (I *really* tried getting into ENT, but after viewing the first two seasons on reruns my cable expired, and I didn't get to see the much acclaimed season three. I associate ENT with "A Night in Sickbay", unfortunately. Someday I hope to see the Xindi arc.)


But after viewing TNG and DS9, I found that I still love VOY. The characters were fun, it had an endearing campiness (and a little bit of silliness). I am now happy VOY is what it was: now we have 21 seasons of TNG-era Trek in which the three series are quite distinct.

When I want to see great drama and epic stuff, I'll watch DS9. When I want the highly optimistic, moralizing, and dilemmas faced by the flagship's thoughtful captain, I'll watch TNG. And when I want some fun, occasionally lightweight (and often humorous) action, I'll watch VOY.

I just love all three shows equally. And despite some of the criticism of the VOY characters, I really liked them all. Tuvok is a great Vulcan, Tom/Harry/B'Elanna's growing friendship, Neelix has grown on me, the Doctor's maturation — I even loved Chakotay.

And Kate Mulgrew, IMO, is a great actress and played Janeway well. My only concern was bringing Seven on and increasingly emphasizing her for the obvious ratings ploy of her attractiveness. But I came to appreciate her acting abilities and thought she acquitted herself quite well, pulling off a tough character to portray.


I understand and appreciate that many were disapointed with VOY, especially after seeing DS9 do such a superb job. Yes, VOY, for a variety of reasons had flaws and missteps. But I still love it equally as much as the other two TNG-era series.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

That's because they use Berman as a scapegoat instead of doing THEIR homework, Behr and Moore have no idea what it's like to have to deal with UPN so they have no real say on the matter.

They have plenty to say on what it's like to deal with Berman though.

You can believe them or you can believe him. Given that I've seen many many things that fell within his baliwick that he frakked up (like sacking Ron Jones for scores that were too good) that I have no confidence in the man.

Well, not Piller since he also knew the truth. He never blamed Berman for much and blamed the real culprits, UPN and Jeri Taylor.

Or he thought that Berman was the "dog to back" in the fight for whatever crazy reason.

 

[Anwar]

Moore's crazy rant when he quit after VOY was the ramblings of a disgruntled ex-employee. And he didn't bother doing any research so he stupidly just blamed Braga for everything.

Behr doesn't know what it's really like to have a hard time making a show compared to what the VOY team endured, so his "I had a hard time with DS9" stuff can be dismissed. Berman's ideas for how VOY should've been done were good, and it's not his fault that no one listened to him. If he really hated DS9 than he wouldn't have wanted it to be the only show on at the time (and he DID want DS9 to be the only show on).

Yeah, he fired Ron Jones and had the Makeup teams make the alien looks less distinctive but the latter stuff would have happened anyways as a money-saver.

 

[vas2009]

When you start ranting without evidence it doesn't make what you say credible. In fact people stop listening.

Only the people who are blind Voyager cheerleaders stop listening. The rest of us acknowledge the truth when it is told and move on.

The rest of you acknowledge the comment without caring if there is a good reason for it or not, because of your own blind hate and move on.

When you've already made up your mind about something why defend your ideas... after all opinions are like a$$ holes... Since there are so many you should have some sensible argument to back it up. Otherwise, your just bitching and whining.

 

[Brit]

When you start ranting without evidence it doesn't make what you say credible. In fact people stop listening.

Only the people who are blind Voyager cheerleaders stop listening. The rest of us acknowledge the truth when it is told and move on.

LOL, from our point of view we are the "rest of us" and you need to move on. You are being heard, but are so deaf you don't know it. You can give us all the nicknames you can think of, that doesn't stop us from being human or having an opinion. There is no "Rest of Us" for you either. Your comment alone is a very good example of the point being made. Prejudice exists and it loves to think it is "right" and is the majority opinion. Prejudice always thinks it is "Truth."

Do not compartmentalize us, or try to diminish us, we are not "Voyager Cheerleaders." We are Voyager Fans, and have as much right to like and enjoy the Series as you do to dislike it.

Brit

 

[Admiral Shran]

And as for the negativity being because of how we defend the show, we wouldn't have to defend it the way we do if they show wasn't so unfairly attacked like it has been for 15 years. You can only take so much before realizing that being fair and tolerant just isn't working. And no other show in Trek gets this kind of ill-treatment either.

Try being an Enterprise fan...

Tell me about it. It ain't easy at times.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Because it's easy to simply think "Well, they can just MAKE more torpedoes can't they?" instead of have the show spoonfeed us every little detail.

It was said that the torpedoes were irreplacable, and yet they appear to keep using starfleet torpedoes. Considering the premise of the show was being lost in space with no backup or Starfleet to reply on, it was KINDA important to show us these details. Ignoring it just isn't on.

They weren't frequently in hostile territory, most of it was unclaimed or neutral.

I don't think anyone can deny Voyager often ran into hostile aliens.

Every little thing that happens to people every moment of their lives isn't of massive importance. A lot of it is just stuff that happens and then is left in the past.

Episodes in Voyager don't revolve around "every little thing" in the characters' lives, otherwise they wouldTn't be episodes. Character episodes in VOY deal with important events and emotions- they are the kind of events that change a person.

And I was also referring to events affecting Voyager.
I'd say the entire ship being captured and everyone made to act in scenarios of wars killing each other is a FAIRLY important event. Would it have killed the writers to refer to it, and to show us how the characters dealt with the trauma or with the massive ship damage?
Here are another few immensely important events that are never mentioned again
-B'Ellana is split in two
-Tom Paris and Janeway turn into lizards and mate
-Kes sees the future
-The doctor creates a family
-Voyager finds the Equinox and take in some of their crewmembers

On all the great shows of the last...let's say decade, one show flows organically into the next. Characters have real lives and real issues that affect them that just don't go away at the end of an episode. I didn't need Voyager to be serialised but I did need to to be at least slightly realistic, but it wasn't

Just because they didn't spend every episode for a whole season weeping over her being gone doesn't mean it didn't happen.

That's....an absurd response, you're using hyperbole and exaggeration to respond, which is just wrong.
I'd like to take Tasha Yar as a good example of how a character death can still be handled decently in a purely episodic show, the TNG crew remembered her and her death affected them.
But on VOY, not even Neelix appeared bothered she'd left and his first mention of his one time partner since "The Gift" was in "The Voyager Conspiracy" - 59 episodes later! There just wasn't the sense there that these characters existed or had real feelings or connections.
That's just bad writing.

In real life, it takes several years to really truly change a person. It would be unrealistic for someone to become a totally different person with nothing in common with who they were a year ago to the point that aside from looking the same they are a totally different person.

Hmm, who said anything about becoming a "totally different person"? You're using hyperbole again, tut tut.
Also, it doesn't take years to change a person, aspects of a person can be irrevocably changed by one event, its called "a life changing event".

It saved money, not having them show up in prior episodes.

I'd love to know how much money it must cost to writer a few lines in a script referring to changing course because of the sensors picking up borg ships. Do they have to pay $500, 000 each time they use the word "borg", hmmm?
Now, that's just silly, no excuse.

 

[Udat]

And I arrived late.

Personally I hate defending Voyager in the forum, and I won`t anymore, just get on with it.

I will always love and enjoy Voyager.

 

[YARN]

What would have made me love the show would have been if it had lived up to its premise.

They should have run out of torpedoes.

They should have gotten to a point to where their only option was to run in most cases.

We should have seen the stress caused by increasingly diminished resources.

Their outsiders (Marquis and 7o'9) should not have been assimilated so easily.

The episode "Year of Hell", in a sense, is a highly condensed version of what the show should have been. It seems as if they made that episode as way to show how the series would have been "too depressing" and "grim" if they had chosen that path. And yet, even if the show had been so grim, it would have been interesting. It would've been gripping to see these people with their lives really at stake every week.

 

[number6]

For the "Blame Berman For Making Me Fat" crowd I put forth this little tidbit.

Ira Behr was the Producer and show runner for The Twilight Zone remake on UPN.

Ira Behr ran that show.

Remember how diluted and bad that show was? Sure there were one or two good episodes, but seriously ask yourself why that show was cancelled after a year.



I think the network had a lot to do with the diluting of Star Trek, and the producers made 11 years of Star Trek under those conditions, still with some great Trekworthy moments, something Ira Behr couldn't do with TZ on UPN.

I think the creative team needed a break and even Berman thought so and said as much in the many years of interviews he's done..

 

[illeanacross]

Janeway was not cold blooded or selfish. There are no facts to hold to any of these statements. One or two incidences don't determine who you are as a whole.

Seriously? Okay, I'm game.

An opinion about someone is valid no matter what someone else says in reply. If I have the opinion that Janeway was selfish due to some of her poor choices, that's my opinion, and not something anyone needs to prove nor disprove.

No matter what, if you agree with the Tuvix decision or not the Look on Janeways face at the end showed about ten different emotions. None of them were "the SOB deserved it ". Maybe she should have broke down and wept over the hypospray? Pleaded for Tuvix's forgiveness? If Voyager was in the Alpha Quadrant the captain wouldn't have had to make a decision like that.

Was Tuvix ever mentioned again in the entire series? Because we're talking about lasting consequences here.

Also how is anyone to know if there were lasting repercussions we didn't even see what happened. I would think that the return home wasn't all hugs and kisses. It had been said often in the show about having to answer to someone eventually. Common Scense fill in the blanks.

We're not talking about common *sense, we're talking about what is shown on TV. It's all very well guessing what a character is going through but my guess that she is secretly a Gorn in disguise would just be as valid as your guess that there were lasting repercussions.

When you start ranting without evidence it doesn't make what you say credible. In fact people stop listening.

Evidently so, as you don't seem to understand this discussion at all. Nobody needs a CSI team to hold an opinion about a character and nobody needs a Judge and Jury to have a discussion about the show.

 

[SRFX]

I think there are a lot of people that have problems with Janeway’s gender without realizing that is the actual problem. No one is going to say “I have a problem with Janeway because she is a woman.” That is completely politically incorrect and everyone knows it, but what a lot of us see is people, that don’t want to be misogynists, hampered by an attitude that is anti-female. She makes them uncomfortable, so they find reasons to dislike her, reasons that they think are unbiased. They think they are being fair and impartial when in all reality they are not, and are for the most part completely ignorant of that fact.

No, I think I actually know why I think the things I think and I feel a faceless TrekkBBS poster from the other side of the world wouldn't know me as well as I know myself.

I like Janeway being in command, and for the first season of Voyager, so far, I am happy with her as a captain.

Most prejudices are carefully taught and learned and are so ingrained within the individual, that the individual doesn’t even realize their attitude is based in prejudice.

Baseless generalisation.

It is very important that Janeway is a female captain and that she commands a star ship. I know Kira is a strong woman and I also know that Jadiza (who incidentally is actually my favorite female Trek character) are strong women but they are not the “Captain.” I wonder why people cannot see that single fact. Janeway and only Janeway in the Trek series is in charge and in fact due to the distance from the Federation there is no one higher than her in charge either. You cannot say that about any other character in Trek, male or female. The difference is not who serves under her but who serves over her.

Sonak, the way you get to the point of having real female military commanders is to make the public at large comfortable with the idea, and the way you do that is by not ridiculing fictional female characters, or making them expendable.

Whether you want to acknowledge the problem or not, the problem is a real one. Girls and women need to be exposed to strong female characters, and to women in charge.

So we can't criticise women in power because women need role models? So basically, we're allowed to criticise men but not women because we need to protect women from reality and just blindly assume all female role models are perfect and beyond reproach? Way to purport equality! That attitude is insulting to women. Also, I love the assumption here that only girls can have female role models.

You know Janeway isn't in charge of the universe right? She's a "Captain", which means there are many people above her in the chain of command. It doesn't matter what rank women have, it's how they conduct themselves with the authority given to them.

If this discussion was on the DS9 forum and the argument was about Sisko’s ability to command and the arguments against him were as undeserved as a lot of the arguments used against Janeway, for example (and there have been threads here on the BBS for this very subject) “I don’t like his voice.” There will be Trek fans that will assume the people using this argument are prejudiced against Sisko because he is black.

No, I sincerely doubt there would be.

And if in the off chance there were, they would be an idiot.

I don't know what century you're living in but it's not the one I live in.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

As far as I can see, Janeway just got things done.
The Tuvix example is a good one, she wanted back Tuvok and Neelix so she got rid of Tuvix. Simple as that, I would have done the same.

 

[Anthony Sabre]

I didn't need Voyager to be serialised but I did need to to be at least slightly realistic, but it wasn't...

I'm in the process of watching all of VOY and am currently nearly finished with season 3. From what I've seen so far, you're right in that later episodes don't seem to address past events. However, they do make the effort to setup events that will take place in future episodes.

For instance they took the time to show that Jonas had been feeding Seska and the Kazon information for weeks prior to their take over of Voyager. In the episode Warlord, Kes is taken over by an alien and breaks up with Nelix. Later on they actually do break up (officially) and are no longer an item. Also in the episode Alter Ego where Kim and Tuvok get involved with the same holo avatar, Vorik reserves a table for Torres and he at the holo resort overlooking her favorite view. A few eps later in Blood Fever it's revealed that Vorik would like to take Torres as a mate when he starts going thru the Pon Farr. And in that same episode they find the corpse of a Borg drone which sets up the encounter they have with other aliens recently freed from the Collective in Unity.

Deep, intertwined story arcs they are not, but they did make some small efforts to be serial in the beginning.

 

[SRFX]

As far as I can see, Janeway just got things done.
The Tuvix example is a good one, she wanted back Tuvok and Neelix so she got rid of Tuvix. Simple as that, I would have done the same.

The right of the individual is of paramount importance.

The problem with Tuvix is that Star Trek fans feel Janeway's decision is a-ok because they've had "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few" drummed into them for decades as a positive and virtuous mantra.

In actual fact, it is a very dangerous philosophy that can be used to justify any atrocity in the name of a 'greater good'.

Of course, in the context of Star Trek, making decision based on this philosophy is considered the most virtuous path, so in-universe, people don't bat an eyelid.

Looking from the outside in though, I consider Janeway's action reprehensible and I used to hate her character for it. Over time though, I've come to realise that her decision in-universe, and in-character was the most reasonable course of action.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

When you start ranting without evidence it doesn't make what you say credible. In fact people stop listening.

Only the people who are blind Voyager cheerleaders stop listening. The rest of us acknowledge the truth when it is told and move on.

The rest of you acknowledge the comment without caring if there is a good reason for it or not, because of your own blind hate and move on.

When you've already made up your mind about something why defend your ideas... after all opinions are like a$$ holes... Since there are so many you should have some sensible argument to back it up. Otherwise, your just bitching and whining.

We've presented our reasons for disliking what we dislike, some of them many times over. You just don't want to accept it because it's more comfortable for you to assume that all Voyager "hate" is "baseless ranting".

Furthermore you refuse to accept what we say when we say point blank that it IS the portrayal of the characters that is at fault, and not the gender thereof. How much more clearly do you want us to make that point?

 

[JoeZhang]

I just thought the show wasn't very good and most of the characters were paper-thin. Yes I would have liked more serial stories but that's not the same as the straw man of wanting Janeway doing smack and Kim raping pandas, I just wanted some realistic reactions from people stranded a lot way from home.

I think part of the reason I thought it was so average was that it just did the same sorts of stories as TNG - well I've seen that, what have you got new for me?

 

[darkwing_duck1]

When you start ranting without evidence it doesn't make what you say credible. In fact people stop listening.

Only the people who are blind Voyager cheerleaders stop listening. The rest of us acknowledge the truth when it is told and move on.

LOL, from our point of view we are the "rest of us" and you need to move on. You are being heard, but are so deaf you don't know it. You can give us all the nicknames you can think of, that doesn't stop us from being human or having an opinion. There is no "Rest of Us" for you either. Your comment alone is a very good example of the point being made. Prejudice exists and it loves to think it is "right" and is the majority opinion. Prejudice always thinks it is "Truth."

Do not compartmentalize us, or try to diminish us, we are not "Voyager Cheerleaders." We are Voyager Fans, and have as much right to like and enjoy the Series as you do to dislike it.

Brit

You have every right to like what you like, but you do not have the right to accuse those who disagree with your opinion as misogynists, or "not ready for women commanders" or any other such claim when you have been told repeatedly and explicitly that such is not the case. Nor do you have the right to insist that criticisms of Voyager are "baseless" when the reasons for those criticisms are clearly posted for all to read.

 

[JoeZhang]

Oh and I still think that Neelix was a creepy paedophile type who was clearly hoarding taxilian horse porn in his cabin, that didn't help.