darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
This.
Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?
- Thread starter ReadyAndWilling
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This.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
Proof? I know what Ira, Piller and Moore have said contemporaneously with and shortly after DS9 and that Berman basically ignored them 99% of the time. And all available evidence points to Berman as being the one to insist on the "reset button", his reasoning being that already stated (so that you could show the eps in any order without "confusing" the viewer).
Try being an Enterprise fan...
UPN were the ones who wanted non-serialization, they were the ones who wanted to air it all out of order. Piller said that.
And Berman didn't even think it was a good idea to have VOY on when it was on. He wanted DS9 to be the only Trek show on, then wait a bit after it ended to do VOY. He also wanted to use that time to hammer out any problems with VOY and hire a new writing staff for the show. If Paramount had just listened to him, it all would've been different and worked out better.
Enterprise doesn't get the bad treatment anymore, basically because the audience is more aware of the troubles in doing a prequel that isn't a full-on reboot and ENT's other problems. Not so with VOY.
And Berman didn't even think it was a good idea to have VOY on when it was on. He wanted DS9 to be the only Trek show on, then wait a bit after it ended to do VOY. He also wanted to use that time to hammer out any problems with VOY and hire a new writing staff for the show. If Paramount had just listened to him, it all would've been different and worked out better.
Enterprise doesn't get the bad treatment anymore, basically because the audience is more aware of the troubles in doing a prequel that isn't a full-on reboot and ENT's other problems. Not so with VOY.
From my perspective Voyager is a great show.
That's cool. I'm glad you like the show, and I'm sure, if I were in your place, I would have little patience for people endlessly critiquing what they perceive as the show's shortcomings. With that in mind I will momentarily be departing from this part of the forum to trouble you no further.
I will add a final thought as to why Voyager disappoints me personally: this show didn't just have a good premise, it had an awesome premise, easily the best of all the Trek shows.
A Starfleet crew and a band of Maquis rebels are cast to the far side of the galaxy and must make their way home through countless light years of uncharted space, including the hostile territory of the Federation's most deadly enemy. Sign me up! I can't emphasize enough how rife with potential such a premise actually is. One of the best of any sci-fi show I can think of off the top of my head.
It is similar in certain respects to the premise of shows like Farscape and BSG, but with the added advantage of the characters' home civilisation, their roots in Federation space, being so firmly established before the beginning of the show. (DS9 also benefited from this added depth, which the writers were able to exploit as a backdrop for their own stories.) Voyager, stranded in the Delta Quandrant, had a fully developed set of values and beliefs that could then be put to the test during the long journey home. Two sets, really, including the Maquis.
As far as I can tell, very little was done to follow through on that fascinating premise which is, for me, disappointing. However, the show doubtless has its merits, and its fans, and with that I will leave you in peace
Actually, I had issues with VOY's very premise myself. It needed work.
For starters, the Maquis. They just were not the source of conflict that the show seemed to utterly require (I don't even think that the show needed it, to be fair). They were never developed properly as being anti-Fed enough when VOY started to serve as a real opposite group.
Now, if the other crew had been ROMULANS, then it's another story.
Also, this "lost from home" stuff. It's just Gilligan's Island in space because you KNOW all the "shortcuts" they'd find won't really do anything to get them home and they'll likely find a bunch.
Being always on the movie means they'll never stick around long enough to develop their own original aliens enough to make them on par with the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians etc. DS9 had the stationary advantage meaning they could keep bringing folks back to develop them better.
So right off the bat, you have shallow aliens who'll never stick around long enough to be developed to the level of past Trek aliens, you have two groups of people who don't really have much reason to oppose one another and several reasons to work together, and traveling around space in some manner that will never be beneficial.
Yeah, real great premise.
And the Borg, I'm sorry but the Borg have no real place in VOY except to get trashed. You need lots of cannon fodder for the Borg to really work in a story, at least fodder to be killed off to keep the Borg threatening without harming the main characters or the ship. You know why the Dominion never lost their threatening name in DS9? Because DS9 always had tons of cannon fodder to sacrifice to the Dominion to keep up their threat. VOY didn't have anything to keep up the Borg's menace with. And the only choice they had when they encountered the Borg would be to destroy them because you can't outrun the Borg and the Borg can track you anywhere.
And since VOY wasn't going to be allowed to build up some fleet of cannon fodder ships to take on the Borg in their way (since it would cost too much and require serialization), the only choice was to just keep having the Borg lose without harming anyone (since UPN wouldn't let them just stop using the Borg).
So no, VOY did not have THAT great a premise. It was pretty limiting actually. Possibly the MOST limited of all Trek shows.
I tried once. But I got shot down with immature pictorial insults and so I gave up trying.
I would welcome the logical discussion but the one time I tried I got shot down for the very thing you are advocating, so I don't have much faith in that discussion ever going to happen. I will just live with the fact that whenever I criticise Janeway's characterisation, I am actually just unleashing my repressed sexism towards women.
On the plus side, it prompted me to start my Voyager re-watch so when that's done, I'll have the freshest perspective possible on Voyager.
Tulaberry whine
So Voyager was a sexist show. Trek fans, according to this thread, many of the fans in this forum and - if we're being brutally honest -the ratings never liked the show nor watched it. And this actually makes them sexist?
Huh?[/QUOTE]
WTF are u talking about I can't even understand how u came to this thought by what I said.
My point was that there have got to be people out there in this giant world that care about gender. These people exist and they do watch tv. Actually I don't believe that sort of discrimination is true for this board. However we can't have a discussion about the difficulties there must of been to have a female captain because of people like u that think you are the only one with an opinion because like the others were saying there ARE people out there who critisize more freely because she is a women. I in no way think it is the deciding factor but it may play a small part. Like it or not women are held at different standards.
So Voyager was a sexist show. Trek fans, according to this thread, many of the fans in this forum and - if we're being brutally honest -the ratings never liked the show nor watched it. And this actually makes them sexist?
Huh?[/QUOTE]
WTF are u talking about I can't even understand how u came to this thought by what I said.
My point was that there have got to be people out there in this giant world that care about gender. These people exist and they do watch tv. Actually I don't believe that sort of discrimination is true for this board. However we can't have a discussion about the difficulties there must of been to have a female captain because of people like u that think you are the only one with an opinion because like the others were saying there ARE people out there who critisize more freely because she is a women. I in no way think it is the deciding factor but it may play a small part. Like it or not women are held at different standards.
Voyager was the show that actually got me into Trek and while I was in love with the premise and thought there was so much potential, I feel the writers squandered it a lot. It's a shame because if the Maquis had been developed further beforehand, if the crew merging wasn't over in a blink, and if Janeway wasn't always so right, it could have been the standout of the franchise.
Looking back, most of the episodes that standout for me are the ones with the Doctor, which raise moral and ethical questions. I'm not a fan of reset buttons and I like there to be consequences for actions... and I don't like characters being near-perfect. However, I still like Voyager more than TNG (even though they had some awesome two-parters) and if Star Trek ever returns to TV, and they decide to redo this premise, I hope they can reach its full potential.
Looking back, most of the episodes that standout for me are the ones with the Doctor, which raise moral and ethical questions. I'm not a fan of reset buttons and I like there to be consequences for actions... and I don't like characters being near-perfect. However, I still like Voyager more than TNG (even though they had some awesome two-parters) and if Star Trek ever returns to TV, and they decide to redo this premise, I hope they can reach its full potential.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
If you have a source for this, link to it, because it contradicts every other piece of information that has come out indicating that Berman had very little respect for DS9, even going so far as to tell Behr, Piller, et al point blank "You will NEVER be allowed to be the sole Trek torchbearer."
To reiterate my point, it was neither a particularly brave nor ground breaking move to have a female lead in a sci fi series by the mid 90s.
Therefore, to use it as a justification as to why people don't like Voyager is pretty flimsy - especially when the only apparent evidence of overt sexism in the fan base according to you guys is the nit picking that comes with the territory of being a Trek captain. I personally think some of the male leads were treated far worse by the fans than Mulgrew ever was.
When I was doing my library technician course both DS9 and Voyager were still in production.
In Australia the video tapes of the shows were actually released before the shows aired on TV. I used to buy the tapes of both shows. First me and my sons would watch the tapes and then I would lend to tapes to my neighbour over the weekend. On Monday I would take tapes to class and lend them to a young girl called Theresa. Theresa would bring them on Wednesday (after her and her brother watched them) and lend them to Jak, Jak would watch them with his daughters that night and give them to Beth on Thursday. Beth would return them to me on Monday. At lunch time the following Monday we would sit around talking about the episodes.
In all 10 people would watch each tape and Voyager seemed to be as popular, if not more popular than DS9. I certainly preferred Voyager but that might be because I loved Babylon 5 and I compared DS9 to that more I compared DS9 to Voyager. When I watch DS9 again in later years I started to enjoy it more.
The owner of the shop I bought the videos at also told me that they were selling about the same amount of Voyager tapes as DS9 tapes.
I don't see what was wrong with the Janeway-Seven-Doctor big three. Noone seems to complain the same way about the Kirk-Spock-McCoy big three.
In Australia the video tapes of the shows were actually released before the shows aired on TV. I used to buy the tapes of both shows. First me and my sons would watch the tapes and then I would lend to tapes to my neighbour over the weekend. On Monday I would take tapes to class and lend them to a young girl called Theresa. Theresa would bring them on Wednesday (after her and her brother watched them) and lend them to Jak, Jak would watch them with his daughters that night and give them to Beth on Thursday. Beth would return them to me on Monday. At lunch time the following Monday we would sit around talking about the episodes.
In all 10 people would watch each tape and Voyager seemed to be as popular, if not more popular than DS9. I certainly preferred Voyager but that might be because I loved Babylon 5 and I compared DS9 to that more I compared DS9 to Voyager. When I watch DS9 again in later years I started to enjoy it more.
The owner of the shop I bought the videos at also told me that they were selling about the same amount of Voyager tapes as DS9 tapes.
I don't see what was wrong with the Janeway-Seven-Doctor big three. Noone seems to complain the same way about the Kirk-Spock-McCoy big three.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
^No one has a problem with a "big three" provided they are written well and performed well. Seven was an interesting CONCEPT, but Jerri left much to be desired in portrayal, and the writers turned her into a MAJOR Mary Sue. It also hurt the perception of the character that even back then most people knew she was banging Brannon Braga, which likely was a major reason for if not the character's entire existence, then probably her casting for the part.
Janeway's many flaws as a character are well discussed in other threads, and I won't go down the long laundry list again.
Janeway's many flaws as a character are well discussed in other threads, and I won't go down the long laundry list again.
I liked the Janeway-Doctor-Seven combination which I consider to be one of the best such combination in Trek.
I don't care one iota who Jeri Ryan was banging, or why she got the job. I have never been interested in the private lives of the Trek actors.
As far as I am concerned Voyager had the best doctor (I only slightly perferred him to McCoy), and I preferred Seven to Data as a way to explore humanity. Janeway wasn't my favourite captain (Picard was, followed by Sisko)) but I preferred her to both Archer and Kirk.
The reason I didn't like Kirk was because I considered him too perfect. All people are flawed and I liked many of Janeway's flaws.
Also I found Shatner's overacting more annoying than most of the acting on Voyager.
I don't care one iota who Jeri Ryan was banging, or why she got the job. I have never been interested in the private lives of the Trek actors.
As far as I am concerned Voyager had the best doctor (I only slightly perferred him to McCoy), and I preferred Seven to Data as a way to explore humanity. Janeway wasn't my favourite captain (Picard was, followed by Sisko)) but I preferred her to both Archer and Kirk.
The reason I didn't like Kirk was because I considered him too perfect. All people are flawed and I liked many of Janeway's flaws.
Also I found Shatner's overacting more annoying than most of the acting on Voyager.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
To each their own, I suppose.
Seeing as how it probably landed her the job, I'd say it's worth taking into account.
Kirk was far from perfect, and numerous eps showed us the foibles of the character and how he worked to overcome them.
I agreed with everything you said up until that point.
Janeway was pretty much always perfect. Even when she wasn't, it all worked out perfectly in the end. The only decision she ever made that had any real consequences was destroying the Caretaker's Array and stranding them in the Delta Quadrant... but pretty much all the crew, if not straight away, eventually reinforced that decision.
One thing I never understood was how the Trek community found Jeri Ryan attractive. I just couldn't see her as a sex bomb. However, whether she got the job through her acting or through sitting on someone, I thought she did a pretty good job with the character. It's just a shame the writers turned her into, as someone already said, a Mary-Sue.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
And if it didn't, she never really showed any sign she cared. Witness her cold-blooded execution of Tuvix, or her direct violation of the Temporal Prime Directive in Endgame.
Ask Tuvix about permanent consequences...oh wait...
I don't mind a character being cold blooded, so long as the impact of that is felt, ala President Laura Roslin and her many brutal decisions.
You know, I would have been so happy if they'd actually kept Tuvix. Neither Tuvok nor Neelix did anything for me in terms of character and Tuvix was the only interesting thing about them... if not a little creepy.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
Exactly my point...Janeway's decisions HAD no lasting repercussions...to her...
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