Why is ST09's altered timeline a problem?

[stonester1]

And I doubt very much Spock Prime is the original TOS Spock.

Oh brother, NOW you are reaching for something to hate.

 

[Warped9]

Seeing what they did when they had a free hand creatively through a reboot I shudder to think what they'd have wrought if they had actually tried to tell a story within the established TOS continuity.

Many a likely reaction would have been !

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Seeing what they did when they had a free hand creatively through a reboot I shudder to think what they'd have wrought if they had actually tried to tell a story within the established TOS continuity.

Many a likely reaction would have been !

Erm, that's exactly what the writers did.

 

[Warped9]

Seeing what they did when they had a free hand creatively through a reboot I shudder to think what they'd have wrought if they had actually tried to tell a story within the established TOS continuity.

Many a likely reaction would have been !

Erm, that's exactly what the writers did.

No.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

Seeing what they did when they had a free hand creatively through a reboot I shudder to think what they'd have wrought if they had actually tried to tell a story within the established TOS continuity.

Many a likely reaction would have been !

Erm, that's exactly what the writers did.

Whuh???

Alternate reality? Vulcan destroyed? Abramsprise??? Brewery???? Events not even remotely similar to what happened in the established Trekverse??? What movie did you see? Therefore NOT within the established continuity.

 

[Greg Cox]

But it's just a tv show, not a religion. I don't see why its continuity is more sacred than, say, LOGAN'S RUN or PLANET OF THE APES.

I think the difference is the pure fact that Paramount had something special that really hadn't been duplicated in TV or any other media: They had a shared universe of six TV series, ten movies and hundreds of tie-in stories. With literally hundreds of different creators playing in the same sandbox. To me I think it was very short sighted that they could not deliver an exciting movie within the existing framework of the franchise.

It was a risky move, granted, but obviously it paid off, creatively and financially.

In the long run, I think we gained more than we lost.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Seeing what they did when they had a free hand creatively through a reboot I shudder to think what they'd have wrought if they had actually tried to tell a story within the established TOS continuity.

Many a likely reaction would have been !

Erm, that's exactly what the writers did.

No.

Actually they DID.

The Alternate Reality was created with that purpose SPECIFICALLY.

Alternate Reality, with Spock and Nero as the link to everything we've seen before in Star Trek.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Seeing what they did when they had a free hand creatively through a reboot I shudder to think what they'd have wrought if they had actually tried to tell a story within the established TOS continuity.

Many a likely reaction would have been !

Erm, that's exactly what the writers did.

Whuh???

Alternate reality? Vulcan destroyed? Abramsprise??? Brewery???? Events not even remotely similar to what happened in the established Trekverse??? What movie did you see? Therefore NOT within the established continuity.

Different Universe, as of 2233.04, but, the same continuity.

I never claimed that things after 2233.04 were the same.

 

[BillJ]

But it's just a tv show, not a religion. I don't see why its continuity is more sacred than, say, LOGAN'S RUN or PLANET OF THE APES.

I think the difference is the pure fact that Paramount had something special that really hadn't been duplicated in TV or any other media: They had a shared universe of six TV series, ten movies and hundreds of tie-in stories. With literally hundreds of different creators playing in the same sandbox. To me I think it was very short sighted that they could not deliver an exciting movie within the existing framework of the franchise.

It was a risky move, granted, but obviously it paid off, creatively and financially.

In the long run, I think we gained more than we lost.

I respect your views Greg and I have enjoyed alot of your work in the past.

So my question is this: Could you have come up with a satisfying, action-packed origin story set in the original continuity? Something along the line of Trek XI, but that worked within the original framework?

 

[Warped9]

Erm, that's exactly what the writers did.

No.

Actually they DID.

The Alternate Reality was created with that purpose SPECIFICALLY.

Alternate Reality, with Spock and Nero as the link to everything we've seen before in Star Trek.

No. They didn't. I know it's asking a lot, but if you put all the clues onscreen together it is not the same continuity altered. It's a wholly different one. Indeed it's an alternate or parallel universe as has been seen often enough in Trek. And I suspect that the older Spock we see also isn't the one from the TOS universe because he doesn't seem to clue in on everything else that's fucked up besides the "timeline."

No. I don't give a fuck what Abrams and his writers say--they probably don't get the difference anyway--but what they wrought is only connected to TOS by the use of familiar names and references. That's it. They got their reboot whole hog.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Alternate Reality, with Spock and Nero as the link to everything we've seen before in Star Trek.

Exactly. My other post kinda disappeared, and then I leave for a day and you people have 10 pages of replies, thoughts, and debates. You people talk a lot! No offense.
I don't want to be part of the 'it erased the timeline' debate...well, maybe I do. A bit. It all depends on your view of time travel and alternate realities. Does traveling back in time CREATE a NEW (altered/alternate/different) timeline or 'reset' and ALTER THE EXISTING timeline? We've established in Trek that there are alternate universes (the Mirror Universe, the Yesterday's Enterprise universe, the universes Worf encountered...
I truly think ST09 is no different.

Simply because if you didn't, then you would have to believe that these are NOT the same characters from TOS. They are, quite possibly, alternate universe versions of the originals. If they were the same people, then their histories would have been changed and all the events of TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and all 10 movies would have been erased from the timeline. If OldSpock and Nero actually travelled back in time along their own timeline, changed history, and DIDN'T create an alternate universe/reality, then your belief that these are the same people that we have followed for 40+ years would be correct. And you could very well be correct. There is evidence to support both views. I, however, prefer to go with the alternate universe theory and believe that the characters I know from TOS are still in the TOS universe and the NuTrek characters are in the Abramsverse, completely separate and apart from each other, like the Mirror Universe

.

I agree. Alternate universe, alternate versions of the characters. Similar, yet not identical. Like the different versions of the Enterprise crew in the mirror universe, or the versions in the universes Worf encountered...it's all the same IMO.

I'd also like to say this is the most civil Trek forum I've ever been on. If this was on the official Star Trek.com message boards I would probably have had several death threats by now.... lol...
Good points everybody, especially about the characters, I may not agree with how different some think they are, but I do understand that if you don't like the characters, it's hard to like the show. Except for Voyager, I hate all but one or two of the crew but like the show...but I digress. Nevermind VOY right now.

 

[stonester1]

But it's just a tv show, not a religion. I don't see why its continuity is more sacred than, say, LOGAN'S RUN or PLANET OF THE APES.

I think the difference is the pure fact that Paramount had something special that really hadn't been duplicated in TV or any other media: They had a shared universe of six TV series, ten movies and hundreds of tie-in stories. With literally hundreds of different creators playing in the same sandbox. To me I think it was very short sighted that they could not deliver an exciting movie within the existing framework of the franchise.

It was a risky move, granted, but obviously it paid off, creatively and financially.

In the long run, I think we gained more than we lost.

Add to that, TrekPrime is STILL there, to explore in whatever mediums they wish to explore it in, including TV and movies, if they ever decide to.

In the meantime, TrekPrime goes on in the books and the online game.

 

[stonester1]

No. They didn't. I know it's asking a lot, but if you put all the clues onscreen together it is not the same continuity altered. It's a wholly different one. Indeed it's an alternate or parallel universe as has been seen often enough in Trek. And I suspect that the older Spock we see also isn't the one from the TOS universe because he doesn't seem to clue in on everything else that's fucked up besides the "timeline."

Because it's YOU and a few others deciding that everything is "fucked up", not him. He's not required to see things your way, and neither are anyone else.

You want to call him some kind of "alt-Spock", whatever, but that's clearly not the intention of the writers. And frankly, they have more say in what they intended to create and did create than you, Warped9.

 

[Shazam!]

Altered Timeline and Parallel Universe are the same thing.

Again, not a fact.

Multiverses have been hypothesized in cosmology, physics, astronomy, philosophy, transpersonal psychology and fiction, particularly in science fiction and fantasy. In these contexts, parallel universes are also called "alternative universes", "quantum universes", "interpenetrating dimensions", "parallel dimensions", "parallel worlds", "alternative realities", and "alternative timelines", among others.

Just sayin'

LOL It's a fair cop, guv.

 

[Shazam!]

As a kid, I had no trouble understanding that the comic book Batman, the tv Batman, and the cartoon Batman all had their own continuities.

Yeah, but there was never an episode of TV Batman were comic book Batman came back in time and altered the timeline to create cartoon Batman.

 

[Warped9]

Because it's YOU and a few others deciding that everything is "fucked up", not him. He's not required to see things your way, and neither are anyone else.

You want to call him some kind of "alt-Spock", whatever, but that's clearly not the intention of the writers. And frankly, they have more say in what they intended to create and did create than you, Warped9.

I don't care what the intention of hack writers are---I go by what's on the screen. And what's onscreen speaks for itself. If you can't see it or wish to believe otherwise than knock yourself out.

This is no different than arguing that ENT was TOS' prehistory when everything about it screamed not.

OTH ENT works well enough as ST09's prehistory.

 

[stonester1]

I don't care what the intention of hack writers are---I go by what's on the screen. And what's onscreen speaks for itself.

Considering it's only a tiny minority who sees it your way, clearly it doesn't.

 

[Warped9]

Considering it's only a tiny minority who sees it your way, clearly it doesn't.

I've had the discussion before, many times. After all is said and done I can sum it up with "I don't give a shit." I go by what's on the screen and not by what others may claim and choose to believe. I've lived my whole life by my own judgement rather than following the crowd. I'll stick to what works.

But if you like the kool-aid then drink up.

There's tons to support what I'm saying, but the two most obvious are this:
- Kirk gets the captaincy after zero career experience.
- earlier older Spock (from wherever) is surprised that this cadet aged punk isn't already captain.

Conclusion:

 

[Hartzilla2007]

As a kid, I had no trouble understanding that the comic book Batman, the tv Batman, and the cartoon Batman all had their own continuities.

Yeah, but there was never an episode of TV Batman were comic book Batman came back in time and altered the timeline to create cartoon Batman.

No but there was a comic miniseries where the DC heros Batman included went back in time did something at the Big Bang and replaced the DC multiverse with just a single universe.

Then another comic miniseries that rewrote history so the the guy who killed Batman's parents was never caught.

And then yet another comic miniseries where history was changed again so that the guy who killed Batman's parents was caught.

Also I can tell the difference between Dark Knightverse Batman, regular Batman and Kingdom Come Batman and at some point they were all ment to be the same guy(well not Dark Knightverse Batman and Kingdom Come Batman).

 

[Nerys Myk]

Parallel universe. Altered Timeline.
Ultimately these are the same things only by a different name.

I don't think they are the same thing. But for most movie goers it's sci-fi doubletalk that amounts to the same thing. And as far as we know JJ and company may not know the difference either.

They seem to be playing with the concepts in Fringe and Lost so I'm guessing they do.